Dunkles Bock with L17 harvest?

[luckybeagle]

I've got a pint of fresh L17 Harvest slurry (WLP830/Wy2352 equivalent) that I'm looking to put to good use. I've already brewed a helles from it and repitched a little less than half of the slurry from this batch into a Munich Dunkel. With this remaining half+, I'd love to put together a nice dark bock.... but not a doppelbock.

Seems like everything out there is tailored for WLP833, which is more attenuative. Anyone have a good recipe and experience with a Dunkles Bock that uses this yeast?

 

[rmr9]

I haven’t brewed a bock with harvest, though I’m currently on a third generation pitch with the omega equivalent which they call their Bayern lager strain - both are purported to be from Augustiner. The first 2 beers I brewed with the strain got 77 and 78% attenuation so I think you’d be fine if you pitch healthy and maybe add some nutrient in.

I was considering using the third generation for a doppelbock and never had a hesitation around attenuation for what it’s worth.

 

[luckybeagle]

Oh nice. What were your two first brews with the Augustiner strain? It's my first true lager (after 200+ batches I finally took the leap), and I'm way less intimidated by the process. Probably helps to have a full pipeline now and no sense of urgency for once, haha.

That's good to hear you're achieving those higher attenuation percentages with this strain. I was initially pretty surprised to see the yeast manufacturer quote 70% for a yeast that, in theory, should produce something that finishes a bit dry (the Helles). After starting this thread I listened to a Brulosophy podcast comparing two smash beers fermented with the same yeast strain (I think it was 2487--the Ayinger strain). One was 100% Vienna, and it finished in the low 1010s. The other was 100% Munich, and it finished around 1020. The hosts reported that they tasted and looked different, but the Munich beer didn't taste cloying, underattenuated or heavy.

So I guess with that in mind, and with your personal anecdote, I should just source a nice bock recipe regardless of what yeast it calls for and give it a go!

Perhaps I'll use SpanishCastleAle's Award Winning Bock Recipe, sub in my L17 slurry and adjust grain weights for my efficiency, but keep everything else the same. I see that they mash that beer low at 149, so that might also be helpful with attenuation and keeping the body in check. I'm assuming a low and fairly balanced ion water profile is also desirable--something like:

CA: 50
Mg: 1
Na: 18
Cl: 40
SO4: 30
Mash pH: 5.3 - 5.4

Sound reasonable?

 

[Miraculix]

Oh nice. What were your two first brews with the Augustiner strain? It's my first true lager (after 200+ batches I finally took the leap), and I'm way less intimidated by the process. Probably helps to have a full pipeline now and no sense of urgency for once, haha.

That's good to hear you're achieving those higher attenuation percentages with this strain. I was initially pretty surprised to see the yeast manufacturer quote 70% for a yeast that, in theory, should produce something that finishes a bit dry (the Helles). After starting this thread I listened to a Brulosophy podcast comparing two smash beers fermented with the same yeast strain (I think it was 2487--the Ayinger strain). One was 100% Vienna, and it finished in the low 1010s. The other was 100% Munich, and it finished around 1020. The hosts reported that they tasted and looked different, but the Munich beer didn't taste cloying, underattenuated or heavy.

So I guess with that in mind, and with your personal anecdote, I should just source a nice bock recipe regardless of what yeast it calls for and give it a go!

Perhaps I'll use SpanishCastleAle's Award Winning Bock Recipe, sub in my L17 slurry and adjust grain weights for my efficiency, but keep everything else the same. I see that they mash that beer low at 149, so that might also be helpful with attenuation and keeping the body in check. I'm assuming a low and fairly balanced ion water profile is also desirable--something like:

CA: 50
Mg: 1
Na: 18
Cl: 40
SO4: 30
Mash pH: 5.3 - 5.4

Sound reasonable?

If you want to be traditional, I would ditch all the crystal or at least reduce it to sub 5%. Crystal (Cara is just a fancy brand name for crystal) malts were not historically used and even nowadays they are not used very often in German beers.

 

[jdauria]

I have a Dunkels Bock carbonating right now, second time I have made the Mean Brews recipe it's a great beer. If you are not familiar he takes a bunch of award winning recipes and comes up with a mean average recipe. For this style, out of 33 award winners, only 3% used the Augustiner strain. WLP820 was used the most, that's the Weihenstephan strain. With Wisenschaftliche Station strain WLP838 and Ayinger strain WLP833 tying for second most.

Take that for what it's worth, but if it were me, I would definitely use the Harvest slurry...the strain is known to be great for malty beers,

 

[rmr9]

Oh nice. What were your two first brews with the Augustiner strain? It's my first true lager (after 200+ batches I finally took the leap), and I'm way less intimidated by the process. Probably helps to have a full pipeline now and no sense of urgency for once, haha.

That's good to hear you're achieving those higher attenuation percentages with this strain. I was initially pretty surprised to see the yeast manufacturer quote 70% for a yeast that, in theory, should produce something that finishes a bit dry (the Helles). After starting this thread I listened to a Brulosophy podcast comparing two smash beers fermented with the same yeast strain (I think it was 2487--the Ayinger strain). One was 100% Vienna, and it finished in the low 1010s. The other was 100% Munich, and it finished around 1020. The hosts reported that they tasted and looked different, but the Munich beer didn't taste cloying, underattenuated or heavy.

So I guess with that in mind, and with your personal anecdote, I should just source a nice bock recipe regardless of what yeast it calls for and give it a go!

Perhaps I'll use SpanishCastleAle's Award Winning Bock Recipe, sub in my L17 slurry and adjust grain weights for my efficiency, but keep everything else the same. I see that they mash that beer low at 149, so that might also be helpful with attenuation and keeping the body in check. I'm assuming a low and fairly balanced ion water profile is also desirable--something like:

CA: 50
Mg: 1
Na: 18
Cl: 40
SO4: 30
Mash pH: 5.3 - 5.4

Sound reasonable?

I brewed a helles that was 85% barke pils, 15% barke Vienna, then used that slurry in a rye lager 80% barke pils 20% weyermann rye malt. I did a hochkurz step mash I think 145 for 30(or 45? Need to check my notes) and 158 for 30. Slurry from the rye went into a schwarzbier

 

[luckybeagle]

I have a Dunkels Bock carbonating right now, second time I have made the Mean Brews recipe it's a great beer. If you are not familiar he takes a bunch of award winning recipes and comes up with a mean average recipe. For this style, out of 33 award winners, only 3% used the Augustiner strain. WLP820 was used the most, that's the Weihenstephan strain. With Wisenschaftliche Station strain WLP838 and Ayinger strain WLP833 tying for second most.

Take that for what it's worth, but if it were me, I would definitely use the Harvest slurry...the strain is known to be great for malty beers,

I forgot all about that guy! Thanks for the tip. Love the concept, too: taking the averages of the best, most medaled beers. Great idea.

I had an Ayinger Doppelbock just now and am sort of rethinking the Bock application of this yeast. It was good, but just not one I'd reach for on most occasions. I'll have to think on it a little more, but regardless of what I decide on, I'll see if Mean Brews has a video on it while I'm working on recipe design.

I oscillate between being extremely frugal and reusing yeast until I shouldn't, and getting one use out of a culture. With summer approaching, I'm wondering now if a Vienna Lager might be more appropriate before I retire this yeast and then begin experimenting with 833 or other (German) styles in general.

 

[jdauria]

I forgot all about that guy! Thanks for the tip. Love the concept, too: taking the averages of the best, most medaled beers. Great idea.

I had an Ayinger Doppelbock just now and am sort of rethinking the Bock application of this yeast. It was good, but just not one I'd reach for on most occasions. I'll have to think on it a little more, but regardless of what I decide on, I'll see if Mean Brews has a video on it while I'm working on recipe design.

I oscillate between being extremely frugal and reusing yeast until I shouldn't, and getting one use out of a culture. With summer approaching, I'm wondering now if a Vienna Lager might be more appropriate before I retire this yeast and then begin experimenting with 833 or other (German) styles in general.

Vienna sounds tasty too! Just one note on Harvest/Augustiner strain...White Labs has released their WLP860 Munich Lager yeast in dry form recently, which is supposedly the same Augustiner strain. I bought 5 packs of it to keep in the fridge and it may become my go to for most German malt forward lagers. Having been in Germany last year for Oktoberfest and going to Augustiner-Keller too one night and tasting how good their beers were, I am sold on their yeast strain!

 

[rmr9]

Vienna lager definitely sounds like a good idea heading into summer - if you go 100% Vienna malt it’ll come out nice and toasty/malty without being over the top. Still a quencher for the summer heat.

@jdauria I didn’t realize white labs released anything besides wlp001 in dry form, pretty cool! Maybe I’ll give it a try sometime depending on how they price it.

 

[jdauria]

@jdauria I didn’t realize white labs released anything besides wlp001 in dry form, pretty cool! Maybe I’ll give it a try sometime depending on how they price it.

They just recently released it, may not even be in stores yet, I ordered directly from them. They also have WLP066 London Fog in dry form, that's been out for a while now.