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WeHeavy

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This past year I have experienced yeast that for the most part is dead when I go to use them.

Late last year I bought 2 vials of White Labs from a LHB shop that's an hour’s drive away, only to have one vial be bad. I had one smack pack be bad in a kit from a mail order shop and just recently I bought 2 Wyeast from another LHB shop that's 2 hours away and had one go bad. (I don't have a LHBS nearby) That’s 3 to go bad in a year and half.

All the yeast had current dates on them and where handled properly on my end. I.e. kept in the fridge till ready to use, yeast starters, sanitized everything. etc.etc.

I did call one the last LHB shop and asked if others have experienced the same thing but I'm not a regular face in their shop and I more or less got the brush off.

I'm not a novice at this but needless to say I'm about to pull my hair out wondering what’s going on. I would like to know if others have had the same problems.
 
What leads you to believe that they are bad? Did you make starters with them and they not take off? I have a hard time buying into the notion of bad or dead yeast unless they sat in t hot truck for a long time in transit.

It was recently proved that yeast can be viable after 45 million years, encased in amber. And we can even grow huge starters from the dregs in a bottle of commercial beer, with time and patience. Not to mention people on here have tested the viability of year old yeasts, including me with 1.5 year old tubes and making a starter.

So excuse me if I'm a little skeptical, as was the lhbs, as to you having such overall bad luck with so many batches of yeast.

Need to hear more about how you use your yeast.
 
I agree with Revvy.
I've had one pack of yeast that just wouldn't start. It was shipped in the middle of a heat wave, which probably explained that, and it was replaced for free by the LHBS.
I've had many packs that took a long time to start, but which worked fine once they did.
It's also not uncommon for a starter not to show obvious signs of fermentation other than a slowly increasing amount of yeast in the bottom of the flask. i.e. I very seldom get much (if any) krausen in a starter, and as I don't use an airlock, and keep the starter on a stir plate, I can't see any CO2 being generated.

-a.
 
I've had many packs that took a long time to start, but which worked fine once they did.
It's also not uncommon for a starter not to show obvious signs of fermentation other than a slowly increasing amount of yeast in the bottom of the flask. i.e. I very seldom get much (if any) krausen in a starter, and as I don't use an airlock, and keep the starter on a stir plate, I can't see any CO2 being generated.

-a.

I agree back with Ajf....I have found that a lot of people who have made starters that they thought were bad were going by lack of airlock bubbling or seeing a krauzens, I answered a thread this weekend where the guy was saying that there was no "activity" and yet at the same time said there was all this sediment in the bottom...I had to make him aware that the only "activity" we cared about was sediment growth, not something useless like airlock bubbling.

OR simply declared their yeast dead before giving the yeast the 72 hour window we talk about.....My considerable experience has been most of the folks who declared their yeast dead, were just impatient.
 
Yeast encased in amber for 45 million years suppose they called it Jurassic beer back then?

So excuse me Revvy if I'm a little skeptical of your perceived wisdom, with over 16 thousand post since 2007 how do you have time to brew?

The question still remains. Has anyone else had problems mainly with the smack packs?
I've had 2 Wyeast smack packs that never bloated after 48 hours and the one vial of White Labs I pitched striaght in had a 7 day lag and it was nasty.
 
Yeast encased in amber for 45 million years suppose they called it Jurassic beer back then?

So excuse me Revvy if I'm a little skeptical of your perceived wisdom, with over 16 thousand post since 2007 how do you have time to brew?

The question still remains. Has anyone else had problems mainly with the smack packs?
I've had 2 Wyeast smack packs that never bloated after 48 hours and the one vial of White Labs I pitched striaght in had a 7 day lag and it was nasty.

WeeHeavy'
Certainly, there are times when a yeast may be destroyed in transit due to overheating, but Revvy mentioned that. Personally, a yeast that was 26 mo. old revived for me, none to my expertise. Just from understanding a weak colony's needs. 50ml, 100ml, 500ml, 1L etc of 1.030 wort. The yeast is now at 8 liters and resting. Also, being uncivil is not a highly regarded trait on this board.
 
I've one bad smack pac in 7 years of brewing.

If you are having problems with yeast from multiple manufacturers and multiple sources, there has to be a problem with your procedures, as they are the only common element.
 
I've one bad smack pac in 7 years of brewing.

I haven't had any bad ones yet, but I've had some that were slower to start. I attributed that to living in the frozen tundra, and the yeast being shipped to me from Texas.

I've had smack packs that never swelled. I just added the yeast to the starter anyway, and had active yeast within 24 hours. The only way to check viability is to see if you have fermentation. A starter is great for that.

In theory, even if you had ONE alive yeast cell, you'd still eventually have enough yeast for fermentation. So, even if the yeast was mishandled, every single one of them wouldn't be dead. A starter is crucial for both smack packs and vials, to wake up the yeast, get them reproducing, and ensuring viability.
 
According to the manufactures you can pitch their product straight away into the wort, maybe it should come with a disclaimer saying that may not work and you should make a starter. There’s a nitch, they can sell a starter right along with the yeast.

After looking around this forum it seems people are having similar problems.

I only get to brew about once a month and I have to plan for brew day, so on Sunday I make up a starter and take the yeast out of the fridge and activate it. On Monday I pour the yeast into the starter and when that ferments out it goes into the fridge till brew day. I just have a problem with paying good money for a product that won’t get going in a week’s time, sure I can wait it out but that’s not the point, according to the instructions I shouldn’t have to.

At one point in my brewing career I use to keep slants and build up cultures but that was more work than fun and was time consuming. That’s why I now use liquid yeast for my lagers for their ease of use. Dry yeast works just fine for ales, but then I don’t brew ales.

As far as being uncivil, I don’t like being attacked by being told it’s my fault right off the bat, that’s what ruins a forum.
 
Just last week I had 6 smack packs delivered to me for a yeast experiment I'm doing. I began brew day by smacking all six packets them brewed up six gallons which I separated into six 1 gallon fermenters. I figured a starter wasn't necessary for 1 gallon. Anyhow, when I finished brewing 4-5 hours later I found 5 fat swollen smack packs and one that hadn't swelled at all. I pitched it anyway. It had a bit more lag time than the others, but it's fermenting away as we write.

I hope you'll check my post count and see how much more credible I am than Revvy ;)

Doesn't it make more sense to entertain the possibility that you're wrong, and to go over your procedure in detail with more experienced brewers. Perhaps they will say, "wow, that's a hell of a coincidence" or perhaps they will point out a flaw in your procedure that allows you to avoid this type of problem in the future.

After looking around this forum it seems people are having similar problems.

Then why aren't they replying to this thread?

As far as being uncivil, I don’t like being attacked by being told it’s my fault right off the bat, that’s what ruins a forum.

That didn't read like an attack to me. Nope. Looking back it was a series of questions, asked in an effort to help you. What sounded like an attack was your reply to Revvy.
 
According to the manufactures you can pitch their product straight away into the wort, maybe it should come with a disclaimer saying that may not work and you should make a starter. There’s a nitch, they can sell a starter right along with the yeast.

After looking around this forum it seems people are having similar problems.

Maybe if you actually read those threads where people supposedly had the "similar" problems, you will find that 99% of those folks, either didn't wait 72 hours before declaring their yeast dead, or were using something other than a hydrometer reading, like the faulty bubbling of an airlock as their means of gauging fermentation. And you may notice that of those who then went back to actually take a hydrometer reading, or came back after 3 days, a huge majority of those said something akin to "hey I jumped the gun, and worried for nothing...everything's fine."

As to whether or not you believe a starter is necessary...had you said you made one for each of them, I may have become less skeptical, because you would have employed a method that just about every book and website suggests that you do.

Making a starter first insures that your yeast is still ALIVE and viable before you dump it in your beer. You will be less likely to start one of those "is my yeast dead?" threads that are on here every day. ;)

You will also ensure that you have enough yeast usually the tubes and smack packs are a lot less yeast that you really should use for healthy fermentation.

If you look at and use Mr Malty's pitch rate calculator you can see how much yeast you SHOULD be using for the grav of your beer. http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html you will find that what's in the tubes or smack pack is usually way under what you should be using.

Making a starter also usually means your beer will take off sooner, because the first thing that the little buggers do in the presence of wort (whether in a flask or in a fermenter) is have an orgy to reproduce enough cells to do the job...So it won't take such a long time in the fermenter since they started doing it in the flask.

Additionally it is better for the yeast to consume and reproduce incrementally rather than just dumping them into the fermenter...The yeast will be less stressed out than if you just dump them in.

Stressed out yeast can lead to a lot of off flavors...maybe even (though rare) the dreaded autolysis....Or the curse of 1.030....getting a stuck fermentation because the yeast have bit the dust.

So making a starter proves your yeast is still healthy, allows you to grow enough yeast to do the job, cuts down on lag time, and ensures that you will not get off flavors or stuck ferementations from stressed out yeast.


And while you were looking around, you may have even seen threads where people ask about starters with liquid...

You might have even come upon this.

I just wonder why then on they liquid, Wyeast, smack packages they specifically say "ready to pitch"?

To which the answer is;

Revvy said:
Because a lot of instructions in this hobby are written more to appease people like you who "Think it's too much work" or are part of the "instant gratification generation" so they make a concession to that and sacrifice "quality" over convenience.....And let us pick up the slack when people post :"is my yeast ruined" threads. :D

This is from a great article in byo magazine, by iirc, Chris Colby, the editor. (but I guess if he's busy editing a magazine, he must not get much brew time, either in you humble opinion. :D)

http://***********/stories/recipes/article/indices/58-yeast/1258-plunge-into-liquid-yeast

You could pitch this teaspoon or so of actively fermenting yeast directly to your wort. In fact the package directions might tell you to do just that. Many brewers (including yours truly) did it that way on the first batch or two using liquid yeast. But experienced brewers caution against it. A better plan is to make a starter culture--to create a larger volume of active yeast cells for pitching. And making a starter is a must if you plan to use BrewTek, Yeast Culture Kit, or Yeast Lab products, packaged in the test tube without the sterile wort
activator.

Using a starter culture will increase the number of viable yeast cells you pitch into your wort, decreasing your chances of infection by encouraging a fast start of fermentation.

Plus if you look at BYO's succinct starter instructions, you could see how difficult it would be to get it on one of those tubes. :D

Or maybe you'd like to see some more answers I have given when people have had what they thought were dead yeast...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/whats-going-my-fermentation-134477/#post1516013

So if you want to trash me, and suggest that because I have a high post count (which if you do a search of my posts you will see it is from helping new brewers not make stupid mistakes like declaring their yeast dead when it really isn't :D) that I don't brew, or really know anything about brewing, mr "I brew once a month," then I would have to suggest that for all the batches of beer you claimed to have brewed, than you haven't learned a hell of a lot about basic brewing process to ensure you have fermentation.

We get plenty of first batch brewers who have at least heard or read that making a starter is a good idea.....and then come on here asking why.

Good luck in your inquiry...I'm sure you find a lot of people who can help you other than me. Since it looks like people were last night and are still lining up here in agreement with you. You've had 124 view of this thread since you started it, and only 12 posts, and how many of them are in agreement with your premise? Go figure.....

:mug:

Oh and they call the beer with the 45 million year old yeast....Amber ale.

Amber Ale: Brewing Beer From 45-Million-Year-Old Yeast

The magic of the internet and wireless communication, is that nowadays we can surf the web while we are at work, on the toilet, or (oh my god, really?) While we are brewing beer, in case you haven't figured it out yet. Especially if you happen to like to share your experience by helping people out to brewe better beer.:D
 
Just want to chime in and say that there have been several vials of yeast that I tried to use that did "nothing" so I aborted whatever beer plans I had on those weekends.

However, having learned (I think) that you really are only looking for the "creamy-looking stuff" to fall to the bottom of the vessel, then some of those might have actually been working. I was looking for things like airlock activity and krausen, which don't really mean much to a starter.

Propagating liquid yeast is probably the trickiest part of brewing to newbies like me. I've started relying more and more on good dry strains (S-04!) partly because I like their taste, but also partly because of their ease of use.

So I feel for the OP when he's thinking that he's getting bad yeast, and the first answer back is that he's probably just not doing it right. However, I do actually agree with Revy that its more a problem of technique and not those wonderful, prolific little yeasites themselves.
 
Krausen in a fermenter, yes....but with starters it's rare to see them

Interestingly, my 2nd starter was a WLP530 that I started at 1qt 1.040, then stepped it up again to 1.040 after the 1st day, and the damn thing threw krausen that completely filled up the 1 gal vessel that it was in. I damn near had to use a blow off tube on the starter!

So after that, I incorrectly assumed that you needed to see at least some krausen on a start to indicate that it was working.
 
Interestingly, my 2nd starter was a WLP530 that I started at 1qt 1.040, then stepped it up again to 1.040 after the 1st day, and the damn thing threw krausen that completely filled up the 1 gal vessel that it was in. I damn near had to use a blow off tube on the starter!

So after that, I incorrectly assumed that you needed to see at least some krausen on a start to indicate that it was working.

I think I said somewhere up top, of the last dozen starters I have made, I have only ever actually had one that I have actually seen. I've always figured they happened so fast and while asleep, or on my stirplate, not at all, since it's moving around so much.
 
Weheavy under optimal conditions a smack pack or vial may get a low gravity beer going fast. But the fact is yeast degrades a 3 month old pack may only have 60% viable cells or less if it was mishandled prior to you getting it. And if you are making WeHeavy(pun) beers than one fresh off the line vial or smack pack isn't going to do it. Starters are not just recommended they are really required with liquid yeast .I have been brewing for a few years and never had a liquid yeast that was totally dead . I may have had to step it up a few times in the starter but it does its job given enough resources.

Use the Mr.Malty calculator its very helpful.

the only time I vary from this is when I make a Hefe I like the flavors of it underpitched.
 
OK so there’s one live cell left in the pouch and from that you can brew beer. I scream UNCLE.

And before anyone says it, it's not something I did because quite frankly it's not rocket science keeping everything sanitized and making a starter.

But wouldn't you consider what you got was less than what was advertised. I mean come on after a week of waiting and next to nothing has happened, to me that is a sign of something’s wrong, and I'm not about to waste my hard work on questionable yeast. And if the yeast is that lazy can you imagine what a long lag period would do to your brew, especially a lager. Yuk!

I wish the manufactures would put more effort into making quality dry lager yeast because it's frustrating getting liquid yeast that are duds from my point of view.

This one is for ghpeel.

From my experiance if you’re making lagers than liquid yeast is the way to go, it can make all the difference in the final profile of your brew. But if you use Saflager-S-23 (which I like) rehydrate it per instructions and make a starter. When you pitch it into 5 gallons, it will rip through the wort in less than 48 hours at room temp and then crash cool your brew to 45 degrees and then follow standard lager practices you’ll make some great beer.
 
Before crying foul, let's take a look at each manufacturer's website.

White Labs provides an FAQ that has 24 mentions of the word, "starter." The FAQ discusses techniques for short lag times, high gravity beer, high pitching rates, etc. In particular, the FAQ recommends a HALF GALLON starter for brewing lagers.
White Labs FAQ

Wyeast provides a similar FAQ with 15 mentions of the word, "starter." It recommends a starter for any old, mishandled, or slow to swell Activator pack, and it specifically states that a Propagator pack requires a starter. Additionally, it recommends a TWO LITER starter for any lager.
Wyeast FAQ

Additionally, it's hard to tell whether a particular package of yeast has been mishandled. Though it may have been refrigerated from the time it got to the HBS until you were ready to brew, there is no way to tell how it was handled before it was received by the HBS. To be assured of a healthy, pitchable quantity, always make a starter, especially when brewing a lager.

Mr. Malty (Jamil Z) has some great information about pitching rates and even includes a calculator.
 
I said UNCLE!

We're trying to help you out, dude.....And not just you but any freakout new brewers who may stumble onto this thread who may suffer from yeast phobia, or believe incorrectly that yeast can die as easily as you do :D

If anyone makes a starter, they will really know whether or not their yeast is viable, no if and or butts. Dead yest is rare and really only occurs if liquid is shipped during the heat of summer and it gets fried, or it is dumped in boiling wort.....But under normal circumsatances, in MY experience, most folks who declare their yeast "dead" are usually either impatient or not using it properly...more operator error than actualy dead yeast.
 

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