Will partial LODO brewing yield discernable results?

[mongoose33]

Sunday, I took the leap--started employing LODO techniques. I brewed an Amber which I could use to test efficiency of my new mill compared to my old Barley Crusher (dead on, luckily, thank you @Morrey).

I now have a mill that crushes at low speed (180-RPM using a 3-roller Monster Mill). I crushed just before doughing in. I boiled the strike water before dough in (cooled with my Jaded Hydra in about 70 seconds). I used a mash cap (5-gallon bucket lid).

It's a start. The wort tasted richer to me, don't know if that's confirmation bias, wishful thinking, or an actual improvement. Sure tasted good, though. It's in the fermenter with WLP001, going to town.

QUESTION: will doing only some of the LODO techniques yield discernable results, and the more of those techniques I use, the better will be the beer? Or do we need to go whole hog, the whole 9 yards, to benefit from LODO techniques?

**********

I've been working on the cold side to get O2 out of the equation, feeding CO2 back into fermenter at cold crash, transferring from fermenter to keg O2-free, transferring the beer into a keg that has been purged. I believe that has helped my beer quite a bit. Hoping that working on the hot side will help as well.

 

[Big Monk]

I would say you absolutely must treat your water (preboil and use sulfites), mechanically limit intrusion, and be solid on the cold side.

I would use Brewtan B in the mash and boil with your copper chiller.

I would also say you should be spunding your beers and NOT force carbing.

It’s really that simple:

1.) Treat strike water (boil and use sulfites)
2.) Underlet strike water
3.) Stir and transfer gently
4.) No-Sparge
5.) Use a mash cap
6.) Boil gently
7.) Be extremely diligent on the cold side
8.) Use spunding for natural carbonation
9.) Use CO2 only for purging and serving

If using copper, use Brewtan B. If Sparging, treat sparge water the same as strike water.

 

[mongoose33]

Well, I'm certainly heading toward those things. I don't have the capacity to do spunding right now, but I'll be moving toward that.

Part of this is not having the right equipment. I have a single 10-gallon spike kettle. I don't see any way to effectively underlet without buying more equipment. My kettle is my Hot Liquor Tun, my mash kettle (I do BIAB), and it's my boil kettle. I'll have to move toward a multi-vessel system, and I'm not sure I can do all that in the near term.

But I am still wondering: if I don't do EVERYTHING you list, is it all for naught? Or are there incremental improvements that I should be able to detect as I move forward?

 

[schematix]

Well, I'm certainly heading toward those things. I don't have the capacity to do spunding right now, but I'll be moving toward that.

But I am still wondering: if I don't do EVERYTHING you list, is it all for naught? Or are there incremental improvements that I should be able to detect as I move forward?

Consider making yourself a poor man's spund valve... just get an extra gas QD, an MFL to NPT fitting, and a cheapo pressure gauge. YOU are the pressure relief. If the pressure gets too high, burp the PRV.

As i've gotton more practice I've had several times where i just sealed the keg after racking and it ended up right within my target pressure range without even touching it.

 

[MaxStout]

This is the angle I'm looking at re LODO--to see if doing just some of these steps bring about an improvement by mitigating oxidation. I'm not able to do the full slate of steps, but am waiting to see Mongoose's results in hopes that a partial LODO will get me to better beer. Looking at RPIScotty's list above, I can do all of those steps (except 8, as I don't keg). I have a copper IC, and plan to obtain some BtB. I do BIAB, no sparge. My potential weak link is racking/bottling.

 

[Big Monk]

Well, I'm certainly heading toward those things. I don't have the capacity to do spunding right now, but I'll be moving toward that.

Part of this is not having the right equipment. I have a single 10-gallon spike kettle. I don't see any way to effectively underlet without buying more equipment. My kettle is my Hot Liquor Tun, my mash kettle (I do BIAB), and it's my boil kettle. I'll have to move toward a multi-vessel system, and I'm not sure I can do all that in the near term.

But I am still wondering: if I don't do EVERYTHING you list, is it all for naught? Or are there incremental improvements that I should be able to detect as I move forward?

Right. So look at steps 1-5 that I listed. Despite the language used there is a single purpose: Limit O2 intrusion.

Let’s walk through your setup:

1.) You are preboiling and using sulfites?

2.) The problem with BIAB is the dough-in. You can counteract this by lowering very slowly, making sure to gently (and thoroughly) stir the initial time, and maybe upping the sulfite dose. BIAB dough-in is a problem because DO often intrudes at a rate faster than the sulfites can negate it. I think you can get good results if you take the careful approach though. You could also purchase a cheap SS pot and fit it with a valve and use that as the HLT. Would likely run you less than $50 and you could mash in with tubing under the grain bag.

3.) Fashion yourself a mash cap.

4.) Are you kegging or Bottling?

 

[Big Monk]

This is the angle I'm looking at re LODO--to see if doing just some of these steps bring about an improvement by mitigating oxidation. I'm not able to do the full slate of steps, but am waiting to see Mongoose's results in hopes that a partial LODO will get me to better beer. Looking at RPIScotty's list above, I can do all of those steps (except 8, as I don't keg). I have a copper IC, and plan to obtain some BtB. I do BIAB, no sparge. My potential weak link is racking/bottling.

You should try bottle spunding.

 

[MaxStout]

You should try bottle spunding.

OK, I'll look into that.

However, my question stands. Am I likely to see an improvement by lowering oxidation by performing the other steps?

 

[Big Monk]

Here is the long and short of it:

You MUST absolutely do the hot side steps. You have to treat your water, limit agitation, dough-in carefully, cap the mash etc. These things are usually in everyone’s grasp. If you can underlet you don’t need a fancy whamadyne system. The hot side is the easier of the two to implement and get right. You MUST try your best on the cold side as well while knowing that it’s th tougher of the two.

Think of the hot side as a balloon. You blow it up the best you can with flavor. Think of the cold side as a hole in that balloon. Your ultimate success depends on how small you can make that hole.

 

[mongoose33]

Consider making yourself a poor man's spund valve... just get an extra gas QD, an MFL to NPT fitting, and a cheapo pressure gauge. YOU are the pressure relief. If the pressure gets too high, burp the PRV.

As i've gotton more practice I've had several times where i just sealed the keg after racking and it ended up right within my target pressure range without even touching it.

Actually, I have one of those I built to test keg pressure.

 

[MaxStout]

Here is the long and short of it:

You MUST absolutely do the hot side steps. You have to treat your water, limit agitation, dough-in carefully, cap the mash etc. These things are usually in everyone’s grasp. If you can underlet you don’t need a fancy whamadyne system. The hot side is the easier of the two to implement and get right. You MUST try your best on the cold side as well while knowing that it’s th tougher of the two.

Think of the hot side as a balloon. You blow it up the best you can with flavor. Think of the cold side as a hole in that balloon. Your ultimate success depends on how small you can make that hole.

OK, fair enough. I think I can handle the hot side OK. That's all low-hanging fruit. The cold side I can do partially. I have a few limitations, due to my equipment, and packaging choices I have made, but I can achieve some of the steps.

The $64,000 question that remains unanswered:
Can I reap some discernible benefit in my home brew by performing some of those steps? It's a yes or no question.
Alternatively, is LODO an all-or-nothing process? Again, a yes or no question.

I come here looking to learn, and I understand the underlying science. I am trying to make my concerns as clear and unambiguous as possible. I simply want to know if doing most of the process will incur benefit.

 

[mongoose33]

Right. So look at steps 1-5 that I listed. Despite the language used there is a single purpose: Limit O2 intrusion.

Let’s walk through your setup:

Remember, I've done this once, as an initial foray.

1.) You are preboiling and using sulfites?

I preboiled. I use 7.25 gallons of water. 1 gallon is tap water, 6.25 RO water. I add a half a Campden tablet to take care of chlorine in the tap water, don't know if that's enough sulfites. Probably not, but there are some in there.

2.) The problem with BIAB is the dough-in. You can counteract this by lowering very slowly, making sure to gently (and thoroughly) stir the initial time, and maybe upping the sulfite dose. BIAB dough-in is a problem because DO often intrudes at a rate faster than the sulfites can negate it. I think you can get good results if you take the careful approach though. You could also purchase a cheap SS pot and fit it with a valve and use that as the HLT. Would likely run you less than $50 and you could mash in with tubing under the grain bag.

I would need a brew sculpture to do this, or perhaps a system where I add water in a funnel arrangement through my ball valve on the boil kettle.

3.) Fashion yourself a mash cap.

I used a lid from a 5-gallon bucket. It's what I had available on Sunday. As I move forward I may see if I can get a silicone sheet large enough to cut out a circle to sit on the mash.

4.) Are you kegging or Bottling?

I'm kegging. I'm pretty religious about keeping O2 out of the process once fermentation is over. I purge the kegs by pushing out star-san from the receiving keg with CO2, then allow it to bubble up and completely displace all air in the keg. That becomes the next receiving keg as I push that Star San out into the next one with CO2, which leaves a completely CO2-purged keg into which I rack the beer. I either feed that CO2 back into the fermenter in a closed-loop arrangement, or feed CO2 from a tank into the fermenter as it drains into the keg.

I'm not perfect with this process, but neither am I far away from it.

 

[schematix]

As I move forward I may see if I can get a silicone sheet large enough to cut out a circle to sit on the mash.

The silicone mat will sink. Consider a stainless cake pan or similar.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I boil and treat with SMB, 25ppm for mash and 10ppm for sparge. I recirculate gently under the surface and have practically no surface disturbance when I sparge, certainly less than pulling a bag out. After yeast is pitched I do a full primary fermentation and closed transfer into a purged keg. I prefer this to spunding as i have some little concerns about stalling. I understand that there is some concern about 02 from the CO2 but its in the parts per billionth range. I do not treat with Brewtan B even though i have a copper chiller although i do use a PVPP and silica gel.

From fermentation to serving the beverage never comes into open contact with the air, until it hits the glass. What to say? The beers have improved dramatically, hops are pronounced and fresh and stay fresh for ages, stouts are malty and wholesome. Before I had many failed Pilsners and Lagers and now I feel fairly confident I can pull these off.

 

[Big Monk]

OK, fair enough. I think I can handle the hot side OK. That's all low-hanging fruit. The cold side I can do partially. I have a few limitations, due to my equipment, and packaging choices I have made, but I can achieve some of the steps.

The $64,000 question that remains unanswered:
Can I reap some discernible benefit in my home brew by performing some of those steps? It's a yes or no question.
Alternatively, is LODO an all-or-nothing process? Again, a yes or no question.

I come here looking to learn, and I understand the underlying science. I am trying to make my concerns as clear and unambiguous as possible. I simply want to know if doing most of the process will incur benefit.

I thought I was being clear so I am sorry if that didn’t come through.

1.) Hot side IS all or nothing but it’s also the easiest to pull off. You treat the water by preboiling and adding sulfites, you stir and transfer gently, underlet the strike water if possible, and provide a means to “cap” the mash by putting a physical barrier at the liquid line.

2.) Cold side management is where you get into the incremental implementation. If you have created an unoxidized wort then the cold side is where you work on preserving it.

So yes, incremental improvements in packaging and serving will benefit you IF you do your due dillgence on the hot side. The good thing is that the hot side process is within everyone’s grasp pretty easily.

If you use copper just make sure you use Brewtan B or another suitable gallotannin based compound in the mash and possibly the boil.

From the sound of it you are all set t give it a go and I think if you try bottling with remaining extract (bottle spunding) straight off the fermenter, you should have the cold side nailed to. I can give you more in depth info on Bottle Spunding if you like.

This is a great place to start and many of your questions can get answered here as we continually update it with all current information:

http://www.********************/low-oxygen-methods/

 

[Big Monk]

Remember, I've done this once, as an initial foray.



I preboiled. I use 7.25 gallons of water. 1 gallon is tap water, 6.25 RO water. I add a half a Campden tablet to take care of chlorine in the tap water, don't know if that's enough sulfites. Probably not, but there are some in there.

You should use our spreadsheet available at our site for dosing metabisulfite. It also contains a full water software and recipe section. That will work out much better for you.



I would need a brew sculpture to do this, or perhaps a system where I add water in a funnel arrangement through my ball valve on the boil kettle.

I think you are overthinking this. A simple Walmart SS kettle with an outlet valve on top of a bucket would suffice. Attach a silicone tube to the outlet and run that tube between the brewbag and the mash tun to the bottom of the mash tun. Bam! You are underletrong for less than $50.

I used a lid from a 5-gallon bucket. It's what I had available on Sunday. As I move forward I may see if I can get a silicone sheet large enough to cut out a circle to sit on the mash.

Can you procure a cheap SS lid to sit on top of the mash? Size your cheap SS kettle to have a lid you can use a mash cap.


I'm kegging. I'm pretty religious about keeping O2 out of the process once fermentation is over. I purge the kegs by pushing out star-san from the receiving keg with CO2, then allow it to bubble up and completely displace all air in the keg. That becomes the next receiving keg as I push that Star San out into the next one with CO2, which leaves a completely CO2-purged keg into which I rack the beer. I either feed that CO2 back into the fermenter in a closed-loop arrangement, or feed CO2 from a tank into the fermenter as it drains into the keg.

I'm not perfect with this process, but neither am I far away from it.

You seem to be on the right track. Check out our site for Bryan’s purging technique and see how it matches up. Sounds like you well on your way.

 

[mongoose33]

I thought I was being clear so I am sorry if that didn’t come through.

1.) Hot side IS all or nothing but it’s also the easiest to pull off. You treat the water by preboiling and adding sulfites, you stir and transfer gently, underlet the strike water if possible, and provide a means to “cap” the mash by putting a physical barrier at the liquid line.

So just to clarify--if I do everything right, but fail to use a mash cap, the lack of a cap will utterly negate all the good that previously was done in avoiding oxidation?

If we miss just one thing, or do it less than perfectly, it's all for naught?

This is a great place to start and many of your questions can get answered here as we continually update it with all current information:

http://www.********************/low-oxygen-methods/

I was hoping that some of those questions could be answered here on HBT.

For instance, what's the issue with using a copper immersion chiller? What's copper doing that I need BrewtanB to overcome?

 

[beersk]

OK, I'll look into that.

However, my question stands. Am I likely to see an improvement by lowering oxidation by performing the other steps?

Honestly, I think, yes, you will see an improvement. It might be minimal, but you'll see your beers clear faster and the wort quality will be better. It's incremental too, I think. Am I brewing Ayinger or Weihenstephaner quality beers? Hell no, but I'm brewing a hell of a lot better beers than I did pre-low o2 methods. They taste richer, fuller, fresher, and clear faster.

 

[Big Monk]

So just to clarify--if I do everything right, but fail to use a mash cap, the lack of a cap will utterly negate all the good that previously was done in avoiding oxidation?

If we miss just one thing, or do it less than perfectly, it's all for naught?



I was hoping that some of those questions could be answered here on HBT.

For instance, what's the issue with using a copper immersion chiller? What's copper doing that I need BrewtanB to overcome?

The trouble here is that I am reiterating things we have in much more detailed form on our site. I understand people’s desire, however, to have it here. That’s perfectly fine. Let me do this in list form, outlining each steps function:

1.) Preboiling/Yeast De-ox - this knocks DO down to nearly zero.

Can you skip it? No

2.) Treating with Sulfites - this provides active oxygen scavenging. Every 5 ppm of metabisulfite has the potential to scavenge 1 ppm of DO.

Can you skip it? No

3.) Underletting - by doughing-in from below, you add additional margin by limiting the initial amount of DO ingress

Can you skip it? Yes, but you’ll need to lower your bag in carefully. You may need to use a larger dose of sulfites as well. With a cheap additional vessel and few fittings you can get setup to dough in from below. This should be on your to-do list.

4.) Limiting agitation from stirring and transferring - this is low hanging fruit and helps to limit DO intrusion.

Can you skip it? Yes, but it’s so easy there isn’t a reason to do so.

5.) No-Sparge - If you can do it, you eliminate the need for sparging and the possible DO intrusion that goes with it.

Can you skip it? Yes. Just treat your sparge water the same as your strike water.

6.) Mash Cap - This serves to eliminate nearly all atmospheric intrusion during the course of the mash. It does this by greatly or almost completely eliminating the surface area of the mash from being in contact with the atmosphere.

Can you skip it? Yes. You’ll have to increase your sulfite dose though. They are easy enough to make that it should be on your to-do list.

7.) Using Brewtan B - Copper has the potential to contribute to an oxidative pathway known as the Fenton reaction. These will be more of a concern on the cold side where staling and loss of the fresh malt flavor is concerned. Brewtan B serves to bind metals and other compounds that may react via this pathway.

Can you skip it? Yes. You may find that you have issues during cold side. They are selling this stateside now at the major retailers so this should be easy to pick up and use.

Cold side should be on everyone’s radar regardless if they brew low oxygen or not. It’s more important in this method but you can work on your process as you go. Flavors will persist for periods of time depending on your cold side process.

 

[MaxStout]

Mongoose's Q&A above is, for me, the best overview of the value of the steps I've seen presented here. Since we are obviously not quite into true LODO territory, I'll refer to our partial approach as ParDO.

Many of those steps don't add much of a hassle factor, and as RPI noted, it's so easy there isn't a reason to not do it. Especially the techniques--stirring, mashing in, etc.

Thanks to everyone who helped clear up some of the questions.

 

[Big Monk]

Mongoose's Q&A above is, for me, the best overview of the value of the steps I've seen presented here. Since we are obviously not quite into true LODO territory, I'll refer to our partial approach as ParDO.

Many of those steps don't add much of a hassle factor, and as RPI noted, it's so easy there isn't a reason to not do it. Especially the techniques--stirring, mashing in, etc.

Thanks to everyone who helped clear up some of the questions.

It’s my overview as written but I knew what you meant!

And to be clear, if you are executing on the hot side, you are firmly in Low Oxygen territory. Whether you can make those flavors persist into the finished beer is all up to your cold side process.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Low oxygen brewing is like 99% solid brewing practices 1% wizardry. The better you make the 99% the easier the 1% will be.

 

[mongoose33]

I would need a brew sculpture to do this, or perhaps a system where I add water in a funnel arrangement through my ball valve on the boil kettle.

I think you are overthinking this. A simple Walmart SS kettle with an outlet valve on top of a bucket would suffice. Attach a silicone tube to the outlet and run that tube between the brewbag and the mash tun to the bottom of the mash tun. Bam! You are underletrong for less than $50.

Perhaps someone can help me puzzle this out. I've been thinking about this all week with little headway.

Below is a pic of my setup; works great. I can see where I could use silicone tubing to either go between the bag and side of the kettle, or I could feed that water in through the ball valve on the bottom of the kettle.

Regardless, I need to either elevate the source of that water so gravity drains it into the kettle, or use a pump. I don't have a pump (hoping to get one at some point). And then there's the question of getting the boiled and cooled water from the kettle to whatever vessel is used to transfer the water to underlet the grain.

I boil in that kettle. I would have to transfer 7.25 gallons of boiled/cooled strike water to something else, then transfer it back. I will have taken pains to remove O2 from the strike water, only to risk oxygenating it again by moving it between vessels. I don't want to use a pitcher to pour it--that'll just put O2 back in the water. And that water is HOT (159-160 degrees).

Further, when I mentioned a brew sculpture, I was alluding to this problem: I'd have to elevate the strike water for underletting above the rim of the kettle, which means...I need to elevate it. So I'd need something to put that vessel on. A sculpture, a 2x4 platform, something. And then I'd have 7.25 gallons of hot water up in the air.

**************

Which leads me back to wondering how important underletting is to the process. Is the issue one of stirring the grist into the strike water and encouraging diffusion of O2 into that water? Is the issue one of oxidizing the grist as it's sprinkled into the kettle? If you don't underlet, does that mean the whole process is ruined?

And is it worse to add grist to the water, or add O2 to the strike water transferring it around just to underlet?

You can see why I'm a bit confabulated here.

 

[Big Monk]

Perhaps someone can help me puzzle this out. I've been thinking about this all week with little headway.

Below is a pic of my setup; works great. I can see where I could use silicone tubing to either go between the bag and side of the kettle, or I could feed that water in through the ball valve on the bottom of the kettle.

Regardless, I need to either elevate the source of that water so gravity drains it into the kettle, or use a pump. I don't have a pump (hoping to get one at some point). And then there's the question of getting the boiled and cooled water from the kettle to whatever vessel is used to transfer the water to underlet the grain.

I boil in that kettle. I would have to transfer 7.25 gallons of boiled/cooled strike water to something else, then transfer it back. I will have taken pains to remove O2 from the strike water, only to risk oxygenating it again by moving it between vessels. I don't want to use a pitcher to pour it--that'll just put O2 back in the water. And that water is HOT (159-160 degrees).

Further, when I mentioned a brew sculpture, I was alluding to this problem: I'd have to elevate the strike water for underletting above the rim of the kettle, which means...I need to elevate it. So I'd need something to put that vessel on. A sculpture, a 2x4 platform, something. And then I'd have 7.25 gallons of hot water up in the air.

**************

Which leads me back to wondering how important underletting is to the process. Is the issue one of stirring the grist into the strike water and encouraging diffusion of O2 into that water? Is the issue one of oxidizing the grist as it's sprinkled into the kettle? If you don't underlet, does that mean the whole process is ruined?

And is it worse to add grist to the water, or add O2 to the strike water transferring it around just to underlet?

You can see why I'm a bit confabulated here.

I don’t see a picture but let me take a stab and try to put your mind at ease, as I still think you are overthinking this:

If you don’t have a pump then you’ll just need to elevate the secondary vessel. No big deal.

A picture would help here. What’s your heat source? I would boil in the new secondary vessel (again, doesn’t have to be expensive), cool and have the bag ready in your main BIAB vessel. Just gravity drain through a hose between the bag and main kettle. Make sure this inlet hose goes to the bottom of the main kettle.

We’ve tested BIAB using the traditional bag into water mash in. Underletting is pretty important. Not a deal breaker but given that it doesn’t take a tremendous amount of reconfiguring to underlet, we recommend it as best practice. It’s not an issue of stirring, you have to stir to get a good mix of water and grain regardless, it’s an issue of putting grain/bag into the water from above. That process, even done carefully, introduces quite a bit of O2. Again, you can always up your sulfite dose to cover that but I’d rather underlet than add more sulfites.

Post a picture and let’s go from there.

 

[mongoose33]

I don’t see a picture but let me take a stab and try to put your mind at ease, as I still think you are overthinking this:

If you don’t have a pump then you’ll just need to elevate the secondary vessel. No big deal.

A picture would help here. What’s your heat source? I would boil in the new secondary vessel (again, doesn’t have to be expensive), cool and have the bag ready in your main BIAB vessel. Just gravity drain through a hose between the bag and main kettle. Make sure this inlet hose goes to the bottom of the main kettle.

We’ve tested BIAB using the traditional bag into water mash in. Underletting is pretty important. Not a deal breaker but given that it doesn’t take a tremendous amount of reconfiguring to underlet, we recommend it as best practice. It’s not an issue of stirring, you have to stir to get a good mix of water and grain regardless, it’s an issue of putting grain/bag into the water from above. That process, even done carefully, introduces quite a bit of O2. Again, you can always up your sulfite dose to cover that but I’d rather underlet than add more sulfites.

Post a picture and let’s go from there.

Done, above, and I'll add it here:

 

[Big Monk]

Done, above, and I'll add it here:

View attachment 549141

Ok. Great. So you are using an external heat source. So the way I see it for you would be:

1.) A secondary vessel. Go SS and as cheap as you can. You’ll boil and chill strike water in this. Add an outlet valve.

2.) Gravity drain into your main kettle. Use a QD type hookup on the secondary vessel and make sure the line extends to the bottom of your main kettle. Have the grains and the bag in your main vessel already. Underlet the strike water.

3.) Then it’s business as usual. Stir thoroughly but gently, not splashing or aerating the wort, and conduct your mash. When removing the bag be very slow and careful.

Do you use a false bottom?

 

[mongoose33]

Ok. Great. So you are using an external heat source. So the way I see it for you would be:

1.) A secondary vessel. Go SS and as cheap as you can. You’ll boil and chill strike water in this. Add an outlet valve.

2.) Gravity drain into your main kettle. Use a QD type hookup on the secondary vessel and make sure the line extends to the bottom of your main kettle. Have the grains and the bag in your main vessel already. Underlet the strike water.

3.) Then it’s business as usual. Stir thoroughly but gently, not splashing or aerating the wort, and conduct your mash. When removing the bag be very slow and careful.

Do you use a false bottom?

OK, that's what I thought. I have to buy more stuff--and when I drain the secondary kettle into my main kettle, I then have to pick up about 70 pounds of water, kettle, and grist and try to wrestle it onto the burner.

I've had two back surgeries; that's why I mentioned a brew sculpture, one where I could heat the strike water up high, then drain into the mash/boil kettle. Lifting 70 pounds? No thanks. A hoist or jack? Maybe....but more money.

I don't use a false bottom; I could buy one from Spike, would cost me another about $105. It would be ideal for underletting the water to the center of the kettle and having it rise into the grain.

So....it sounds like I'm on the hook for another few hundred dollars to make this work.

PS: I appreciate the responses--it's just that it appears that to do this properly, I'm going to have to invest in a lot more equipment, or rethink my setup. I have been looking at a pump as a way to move water and wort around; I also want a pump in part so I can whirlpool and get as much trub out of the wort as I can. I've read about purging the lines before pumping, that I probably could do fairly easily. But to do this with BIAB sounds nigh impossible using our traditional setups...

PPS: Why would underletting be superior to just slowly lowering the BIAB bag, filled with grist, into the water? I could crush the grain right into the bag as it lines a 5-gallon bucket, then slowly lower that bag into the water. Either way, the grist has air amongst the particles, and lowering the bag would be analogous to having the water rise up from the bottom, wouldn't it?

 

[imasickboy]

Actually, I have one of those I built to test keg pressure.

View attachment 548735

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007GDY3CU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003GSKXEG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002SAO7XQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

A little more than $20 and you have the rest of your spunding valve.

 

[Big Monk]

OK, that's what I thought. I have to buy more stuff--and when I drain the secondary kettle into my main kettle, I then have to pick up about 70 pounds of water, kettle, and grist and try to wrestle it onto the burner.

I've had two back surgeries; that's why I mentioned a brew sculpture, one where I could heat the strike water up high, then drain into the mash/boil kettle. Lifting 70 pounds? No thanks. A hoist or jack? Maybe....but more money.

I don't use a false bottom; I could buy one from Spike, would cost me another about $105. It would be ideal for underletting the water to the center of the kettle and having it rise into the grain.

So....it sounds like I'm on the hook for another few hundred dollars to make this work.

PS: I appreciate the responses--it's just that it appears that to do this properly, I'm going to have to invest in a lot more equipment, or rethink my setup. I have been looking at a pump as a way to move water and wort around; I also want a pump in part so I can whirlpool and get as much trub out of the wort as I can. I've read about purging the lines before pumping, that I probably could do fairly easily. But to do this with BIAB sounds nigh impossible using our traditional setups...

PPS: Why would underletting be superior to just slowly lowering the BIAB bag, filled with grist, into the water? I could crush the grain right into the bag as it lines a 5-gallon bucket, then slowly lower that bag into the water. Either way, the grist has air amongst the particles, and lowering the bag would be analogous to having the water rise up from the bottom, wouldn't it?

I understand how a bad back makes lifting tough for you.

To be clear, you CAN lower the bag in slowly and gently mix when doughing in. For sure you can and I’d suggest you do that given your setup. You’ll want to make sure you go for the top end of the metabisulfite dosing (30 ppm).

Don’t let NOT Underletting stop you from trying this. The reason Underletting is superior, however, is that it cuts down mashing in time drastically. It takes a while to drop the bag in slowly and mix well. Believe me, we have the empirical experience to back this up. The more time spent at mash-in the worse off you are, as mashing in is typically the single biggest consumer of your metabisulfite dose. Underletting allows you to add water to grains, not grains to water and mixing works much better and faster.

With that said, don’t let this one thing stop you from trying it.

 

[MSK_Chess]

105 dollars for a false bottom, really? my goodness, I think I paid £20 for mine, stainless and all.

 

[mongoose33]

105 dollars for a false bottom, really? my goodness, I think I paid £20 for mine, stainless and all.

Well, it's $90, plus since I live in the same state as Spike, I'll have 5.5% tax, plus if I have it shipped it'll probably cost $10. So $105. It's a very nice false bottom:

https://spikebrewing.com/collections/kettle-accessories/products/v3-false-bottom

 

[MSK_Chess]

False bottom was the best thing I purchased. Makes recirculation and sparging a dream. I don't use rice hulls or anything and have never had a stuck sparge. If you are using a nylon bag as well you will have super easy time of it, underletting or whatever you need to do.

 

[JDXX1971]

I use a BIAB false bottom from BobbyM at brewhardware. Wouldn't that be all you need with the bag? I am moving forward planning my process using Bobby's false bottoms. I have three of them to fit my various sized kettles for around the price of the Spike one.

I have not taken any steps to utilize the LODO method yet but I already under let my water. I find the water mixes with the grain much better with no dough balls yet. I have a cooler that I use to hold my strike water after heating it in the kettle. I am also wondering about the oxygenating of the water as I pump it back and forth.

 

[Jako]

just had a thought i have a cooler mash tun and a kettle with no valve on it. could i get to strike temp then rack my water over into the bottom of my mash tun then use the valve on my mash tun to run off back into my boil kettle? just thinking of simple work around for my set up.

 

[Big Monk]

just had a thought i have a cooler mash tun and a kettle with no valve on it. could i get to strike temp then rack my water over into the bottom of my mash tun then use the valve on my mash tun to run off back into my boil kettle? just thinking of simple work around for my set up.

mongoose33 did that same thing. Careful transfer from boil kettle through a valve into the old cooler MLT, then underlet into the MLT. the problem seems to be your heating vessel not having an outlet valve. That could be a problem due to the splashing from pouring into the cooler.

A valve install for your kettle would be very cheap. Maybe $15 shipped from bargain fittings for all the pieces.

 

[Jako]

mongoose33 did that same thing. Careful transfer from boil kettle through a valve into the old cooler MLT, then underlet into the MLT. the problem seems to be your heating vessel not having an outlet valve. That could be a problem due to the splashing from pouring into the cooler.

A valve install for your kettle would be very cheap. Maybe $15 shipped from bargain fittings for all the pieces.

thought about this just worried about doing a boil in the kettle and melting the seals or it leaking. i will look around on this might be my best option as i don't need a bigger boil kettle.

 

[griffi]

Intrigued by this discussion but doubting my ability to do much LODO with my current recirculating eBIAB system - the benefits of a fine crush and constant recirculation probably have a steep downside if you’re worried about hot side aeration.

 

[mongoose33]

Intrigued by this discussion but doubting my ability to do much LODO with my current recirculating eBIAB system - the benefits of a fine crush and constant recirculation probably have a steep downside if you’re worried about hot side aeration.

Well, I'm still a newbie but learning fast....and I would love to have a recirculating system. As long as you keep the air away from it, it would be golden.

I'm trying to figure out how to do a HERMS system with my setup. I'm not eBIAB, but BIAB. Though as I go through this LODO exercise, I'm starting to think BIAB is not very compatible w/ LODO brewing best practices....

 

[mongoose33]

Duplicate

 

[griffi]

Well, I'm still a newbie but learning fast....and I would love to have a recirculating system. As long as you keep the air away from it, it would be golden.

I'm trying to figure out how to do a HERMS system with my setup. I'm not eBIAB, but BIAB. Though as I go through this LODO exercise, I'm starting to think BIAB is not very compatible w/ LODO brewing best practices....

2 1/2 years of home brewing and I’m still learning a lot. The problem I see with trying to do anything LODO with a recirculating ebiab system is you still have pump cavitation and usually a spray of wort coming back to the top of the mash. I’m thinking about trying some of these methods by mashing into a cooler then running the wort back into my electric BK...