Substitute for Sauermaltz...phophoric acid 10%?

CornyKegs 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Approx...

1 oz 3% Acid Malt = 8.8 ml 10% Phosphoric Acid = 0.8 ml 88% ml Lactic Acid
 
Don’t bother with the 10% phosphoric. Might be the biggest waste of money in homebrewing. Either use 88% lactic or buy some 85% phosphoric. You can buy more of it than you could ever use for $20.
 
VikeMan said:
Approx...

1 oz 3% Acid Malt = 8.8 ml 10% Phosphoric Acid = 0.8 ml 88% ml Lactic Acid
Click to expand...

These are sufficiently good ratios to suffice adequately at the most typical to be chosen mash pH targets, and I applaud that you clearly state that they are merely approximations, but for the benefit of those who may have missed that these are merely approximations and may thereby attempt to universalize them, the acid strength comparison ratios of these differing sources of acid vary with changes in target pH, and are not actually hard fixed or written in stone.
 
Acid malt has it's place, but it's not a full panacea for acidification. If your water source has relatively low alkalinity, then you can get by with acid malt. But if your water has significant alkalinity, you'll need to use some other form of acidification to neutralize your sparging water.

My problem with acid malt is its inconsistency in acidity. It's a natural product that can exhibit variation in acidity. If you're willing to monitor and assess your acid malt strength, you can produce decent mashing pH adjustment. But, I contend that most brewers would find that using a consistent and reliable acid source is better.
 
I don't know if there's any point in measuring the pH of adjusted strike water.
Lord knows I've done it on occasion but the data just sits in my brew logs and literally goes nowhere...

Cheers!
 
mabrungard said:
Acid malt has it's place, but it's not a full panacea for acidification. If your water source has relatively low alkalinity, then you can get by with acid malt. But if your water has significant alkalinity, you'll need to use some other form of acidification to neutralize your sparging water.

My problem with acid malt is its inconsistency in acidity. It's a natural product that can exhibit variation in acidity. If you're willing to monitor and assess your acid malt strength, you can produce decent mashing pH adjustment. But, I contend that most brewers would find that using a consistent and reliable acid source is better.
Click to expand...

Weyermann Sauermalz is pretty darn consistent. Since I don’t sparge or use a kettle acid addition, it works well for me.

As you said though, YMMV. Especially if your setup is unlike mine.
 
WhoDatDad78 said:
I used 10 ML of phosphoric and 1/4tsp of CaCl for my RO sytem water, now its measuring at 4.8 PH. Idk...
Click to expand...

In reality, hitting a targeted 5.4 pH for alkalinity containing source water via acidification is an art that generally works better on paper than in the real world. There is little buffering against pH drop present within water, and if while targeting 5.4 pH for your water via acidification your initially presumed alkalinity differs only slightly from the actual alkalinity, or if your acid measurement is off by merely a drop or more, or if your acid does not have precisely the package stated percent concentration (which is most likely nigh-on always going to be the factual case), then hitting 4.8 while targeting 5.4 is not at all abnormal. Very little acid is required to move water from pH 5.4 to pH 4.8, and the end result of such a minute extra amount of acid is not going to be noticed downstream, so 'RDWHAHB'.
 
RPIScotty said:
Weyermann Sauermalz is pretty darn consistent. Since I don’t sparge or use a kettle acid addition, it works well for me.
Click to expand...

Weyemann sauermalz is probably consistent and high quality product. The problem is that 'sour malt' or 'acid malt' is inconsistent between maltsters. My LHBS labels it as 'Acid Malt - imported'. It's most often Bestmalz, but varies. They can never tell me where it's from (they're quite helpful and friendly, but genuinely can't work out which bag of malt it's from). I'll stick to lactic or phosphoric acid.

From a recipe point of view, saying, for example '2% acid malt' is worthless, unless the brand of acid malt is specified.
 
Gnomebrewer said:
Weyemann sauermalz is probably consistent and high quality product. The problem is that 'sour malt' or 'acid malt' is inconsistent between maltsters. My LHBS labels it as 'Acid Malt - imported'. It's most often Bestmalz, but varies. They can never tell me where it's from (they're quite helpful and friendly, but genuinely can't work out which bag of malt it's from). I'll stick to lactic or phosphoric acid.

From a recipe point of view, saying, for example '2% acid malt' is worthless, unless the brand of acid malt is specified.
Click to expand...

That’s of course part of the problem. My shop always has Weyermann and on the rare cases they’ve accidentally ordered Best, I just order online.

I like using Sauermalz because I don’t sparge and I use distilled water as a base. I like just mashing in and calling it a day and I don’t have to have extra acids or measuring devices for them.
 
I would be surprised if any maltster is able to consistently produce acid malt that's within, say, 3% of its nominal acid content, i.e. for a 3% acid malt, between 2.91% and 3.09%. Fortunately(?) there's so much else going on in in the mash that's variable that the pH impact of the variation might get lost in the noise. Even "normal" malts can have fairly surprising pH variation from batch to batch. (I know, because I've measured them individually.)

There's some debate about how maltsters produce acid malt and comply with the Reinheitsgebot, and they're not telling (Weyermann, for example, gives a cleverly worded answer that's open to interpretation), but any of the potential methods don't (IMO) scream consistency. Currently, Weyermann lists the pH (presumably a distilled water mash pH) of their acidulated malt as 3.3 - 4.5. Yikes. I think they used to list 3.4 - 3.6.

https://www.weyermann.de/usa/gelbe_Seiten_usa.asp?snr=1&idkat=1297&umenue=yes&idmenue=269&sprache=10
 
VikeMan said:
I would be surprised if any maltster is able to consistently produce acid malt that's within, say, 3% of its nominal acid content, i.e. for a 3% acid malt, between 2.91% and 3.09%. Fortunately(?) there's so much else going on in in the mash that's variable that the pH impact of the variation might get lost in the noise. Even "normal" malts can have fairly surprising pH variation from batch to batch. (I know, because I've measured them individually.)

There's some debate about how maltsters produce acid malt and comply with the Reinheitsgebot, and they're not telling (Weyermann, for example, gives a cleverly worded answer that's open to interpretation), but any of the potential methods don't (IMO) scream consistency. Currently, Weyermann lists the pH (presumably a distilled water mash pH) of their acidulated malt as 3.3 - 4.5. Yikes. I think they used to list 3.4 - 3.6.

https://www.weyermann.de/usa/gelbe_Seiten_usa.asp?snr=1&idkat=1297&umenue=yes&idmenue=269&sprache=10
Click to expand...

They spray the malt with Sauergut. Weyermann is the only maltster putting out a highly consistent Sauermalz in my opinion.

I usually grab a few pounds at a time, run a test mash, and adjust the strength of the particular batch of malt for future reference. Since it can take a few months to use a few pounds, it works out great for me.
 
RPIScotty said:
They spray the malt with Sauergut. Weyermann is the only maltster putting out a highly consistent Sauermalz in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Do you have a source for this information (other than internet lore, which also includes a couple other methods)? I have always believed Weyermann was spraying, but never had any first hand information.
 
VikeMan said:
Do you have a source for this information (other than internet lore, which also includes a couple other methods)? I have always believed Weyermann was spraying, but never had any first hand information.
Click to expand...

If you look closely, the source is the source:

https://www.weyermann.de/usa/faq.asp?umenue=yes&idmenue=294&sprache=10

They say lactic acid but make it a point to say it’s naturally occurring on the grains. This is how you go about making a Sauergut batch/Ongoing supply. You take some uncrushed grains and some wort and Viola!

Add to that the fact that they manufacturer and sell Sauergut, and also have a small brewery on site, and to me it’s just short of being a no brainer.
 
RPIScotty said:
If you look closely, the source is the source:

https://www.weyermann.de/usa/faq.asp?umenue=yes&idmenue=294&sprache=10

They say lactic acid but make it a point to say it’s naturally occurring on the grains. This is how you go about making a Sauergut batch/Ongoing supply. You take some uncrushed grains and some wort and Viola!

Add to that the fact that they manufacturer and sell Sauergut, and also have a small brewery on site, and to me it’s just short of being a no brainer.
Click to expand...

I've read those words before, i.e. : "Weyermann® Acidulated Malt is produced by using lactic acid, which is generated by on grain natural occurring lactic bacteria."

I believe this almost certainly means they spray, but it can also be argued other ways. For example, I've seen people insist that the malt is moistened to encourage lactobacillus growth (like a quasi sour mash) and then halted, with the result being the malt that the acid was actually produced on becomes the acid malt. Personally, I think that's borderline preposterous. Where would the sugar come from? And yet, I see this and other variations out there.
 
VikeMan said:
I've read those words before, i.e. : "Weyermann® Acidulated Malt is produced by using lactic acid, which is generated by on grain natural occurring lactic bacteria."

I believe this almost certainly means they spray, but it can also be argued other ways. For example, I've seen people insist that the malt is moistened to encourage lactobacillus growth (like a quasi sour mash) and then halted, with the result being the malt that the acid was actually produced on becomes the acid malt. Personally, I think that's borderline preposterous. Where would the sugar come from? And yet, I see this and other variations out there.
Click to expand...

I’ve seen the other explanations as well and they don’t hold weight if you invoke Occam’s Razor.

Even if we disregard the fact that Weyermann sells Sauergut, we could make the very reasonable assumption that they had the raw materials to make it. In this case, tons of malt (they are a maltster!) and tons of wort (they produce extract and have a pilot brewery). Yet we know they make Sauergut and it isn’t like they just started making it either, as it’s been available to commercial brewers for years.

The other methods I’ve heard just don’t make sense. They have the malt and they have the Sauergut. It also makes sense that they would spray it with something that has a know acid strength, which is part of the reason they can list a strength for the acid malt.
 
RPIScotty said:
Well, that throws a monkey wrench in my theory, doesn't it? o_O

Still doesn't make sense to me any other way.
Click to expand...


Hidden in plain sight.

0000952_weyermann-sour-wort-20-kg_550.jpeg
 
Die_Beerery said:
Hidden in plain sight.

0000952_weyermann-sour-wort-20-kg_550.jpeg
Click to expand...

Oh, of course. Spraying the malt with Sauergut, to me, is the most plausible explanation for how they produce the Sauermalz. I don’t think it matters that they source it from a 3rd party.

After all the talking we’ve done about that product, I’m surprised it slipped my mind that Weyermann wasn’t actually producing it in house.
 
RPIScotty said:
Oh, of course. Spraying the malt with Sauergut, to me, is the most plausible explanation for how they produce the Sauermalz. I don’t think it matters that they source it from a 3rd party.

After all the talking we’ve done about that product, I’m surprised it slipped my mind that Weyermann wasn’t actually producing it in house.
Click to expand...


We don't have to look very far, to know how Sauermalz is made :)

43GENli.png
dplu93G.png
 
Is the 88% lactic acid which is available in the USA (or the 80% concentration that is available in many other countries) of biological or synthetic (chemical reaction process) origin?
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
Is the 88% lactic acid which is available in the USA (or the 80% concentration that is available in many other countries) of biological or synthetic (chemical reaction process) origin?
Click to expand...

AFAIK, the only way to produce lactic acid is via fermentation.

Edit: But I did once see an 88% product that said "synthetically produced." OTOH, it didn't say exactly how.
 

Similar threads

badlee
Help with RO water additions
Replies
6
Views
510
badlee
badlee
Airborneguy
Should I use RO water?
Replies
30
Views
2K
CobraVin
CobraVin
hilljack13
Must have salts/acids?
2
Replies
42
Views
2K
HighVoltageMan!
H
ChuckCollins
PH Meter and readings
Replies
3
Views
511
MaxStout
MaxStout
R
Dilution of phosphoric acid problem
Replies
17
Views
1K
Dland
Dland
wps-hbt2

Latest posts

Back
Top