Need help starting LoDo

[RPh_Guy]

I'm interested in trying a LoDo brew some time in the next few months and I have some newbie questions.
I read much of the site, but it's a lot to take in at once. Extremely helpful though!

Here's my main equipment for 5-6 gal batches:
10 gal mash cooler with screen and valve
8.5 gal kettle with valve
Copper CFC and IC, silicone tubing
Drill and stir tool for aeration
Stir plate, flasks
Ported Fermonsters
Bottling bucket, 12 & 22oz bottles, bottling wand
3-roller Kegco (same as Monster Mill) grain mill

I'm trying to figure out where to begin, the minimum stuff I need to change, and the cheapest way to get there.

I've never conditioned grain. Is there any risk to damaging my mill? How important is this? What do you mean by "Coarser crush inhibits LOX"?

I use RO water.
To deoxygenate mash water, the "yeast method" seems reasonable. I have both potassium and sodium metabisulfite and a good scale. I need a cap for the kettle.
Floating cookie trays seem reasonable. I'll try to find some that aren't aluminum.
When you're talking about sulfite dosage, that's ppm free SO2, right?

I don't see how using sauergut actually relates to LoDo, but I love the idea, so thanks for that at least!

I think I can do full-volume no-sparge in my 10 gal cooler. I just need to get a mash cap. I can use tubing to drain the mash water down to the bottom of the mash tun below the grain. That's "underletting", right?

I can certainly boil gently. I'm unclear whether there's anything I need to change with that. I can't really separate break material if I'm using a CFC ... It's fine to copper if I use Brewtan B?

I usually make vitality starters, so I'll be sure to have that ready to pitch immediately and then aerate. My liquid yeast is generally very fresh.

Ferment as normal. I keep the fermenter closed until bottling.

For bottling, I should bottle straight from the fermenter? I can easily use 22oz bottles. I also use O2-absorbing caps.
I've never bottled straight from the fermenter. Would it be reasonable to dissolve my corn sugar in boiling water, cool, and use a syringe to add the appropriate amount to each bottle right before filling? The small volume of priming solution probably can't pick up enough O2 to matter, right? I'm thinking I should try to minimize headspace.
What if instead I were to use a cap in my bottling bucket?

Any idea whether LoDo would benefit long-term sours?

Thanks for your help!

Please no hate on this thread. I'm well aware of some members' reservations about the process.

 

[charliethebum]

Bump for science

 

[mongoose33]

I've been trying to do LODO techniques for a little over a year. It's involved, and I think of it as a process where I'm getting closer and closer to perfect without, of course, ever achieving it.

It's not that difficult to avoid oxygen at one level; it's just a lot of moving parts. But it requires specific equipment to do it well, which you may or may not be able to jury-rig.

I can't tell you about the yeast method of doxygenating water, never done it. I pre-boil the water then cool it.

Instead, let me tell you what I do and why, and you can adopt/adapt whatever makes sense to you.

*******

Anywhere pre-boil that oxygen attacks the grain or the wort is a bad thng in LODO-land. To combat that I:

1. Crush the grain as close to dough-in as possible. As soon as it is crushed, the particles of grist are exposed to O2, and oxidation. Shorter delay is better.

2. Crush the grain relatively coarsely; larger particles have less overall surface area to be oxidized compared to, say, the fine crush BIAB'ers often use. I don't condiiton the grain, never had trouble with a lack of large husk pieces which conditioning is supposed to prevent.

3. I preboil the strike water 5 minutes to drive air, including oxygen, from it. I then cool to my strike temp. This is a little harder than you think, because there's often residual heat in the system that must be accounted for.

4. Once cooled to strike temp, I add my water amendments, including 1.5 campden tablets, crushed. The Potassium Metabisulfite is an oxygen scavenger, and that will help capture any wayward O2 that makes it into the mash. I also add a gram of Brewtan-B to the water which is supposed to help. Any exposure of the mash to copper can create Fenton reactions, which create staling compounds. This is an issue also when chilling after the boil if you use a copper chiller. Adding 1.5 grams of Brewtan-B to the boil one minute before adding the chiller will help mitigate that.

5. That's the point I go crush the grist; I bought a Monster Mill 3 and motorized it to make that process as fast as possible. It's about 2 minutes to do 12 pounds of grain, 4:15 if I double-crush it (counting loading time).

6. I add the grist to the mash tun on top of the false bottom, trying to carefully layer it in rather than just pour it and create a lot of dust. I'm trying to minimize air contact.

7. I begin to underlet the grain. I use a pump now, but previously I elevated a vessel, filled it with the pre-boiled strike water, and drained via a tube to the bottom of the mash tun (or BIAB kettle when I did that). There's a pic attached at the end showing that. I have it underletting at about a gallon per minute.

8. I stir, gently, gently, to get a good mix, check temp, then cover with a mash cap to isolate the mash from the atmosphere, from which the mash would be exposed to oxygen. I've actually used foamboard as the mash cap in my cooler mash tun, covering it with stretch wrap because, well, I'm not certain about the food-safe characteristics of that foam board. I think it is, but I'm being careful. Others use metal pot lids, or whatever.

I cover the mash tun to insulate it.

9. I wait. At about 15 minutes following the end of underletting I'll stir again (gently, gently), take a temp, and a sample to check pH.

10. At the end of the hour of mashing, starting the timing at the end of underletting, then I begin to transfer the wort to the BK. I've done this with the mash tun elevated and drain to the bottom of the BK (no splashing!), also use a pump.

11. I'll use a lauter cap on the rising wort in the BK, same thing, isolate the wort from the atmosphere. This is harder to do in my current BK because I'm electric now and the element is in the way, plus the whirlpool arm. I do what I can.

As soon as I can start heating the wort, I do it.

That's the pre-boil part of this. Many are now saying that a more gentle boil is better for the wort, less damage to the wort, and more long-term stability. This will require some recipe and process adjustment as the amount of boil-off is less, resulting in a somewhat lower gravity OG unless you account for it.

At this point, chilling the wort prior to racking to fermenter has to be done. I switched to a SS counterflow chiller to get the copper out of the system; if you have a copper chiller, you have to use some Brewtan-B as noted above to try to forestall Fenton reactions.

Once chilled, oxygen doesn't much matter for just a little while. I'm oxygenating my wort, because at this point, the yeast need it. The recommendation is to pitch the yeast first then oxygenate so the yeast can get to work on the O2 as quickly as possible. For me, it's a difference in time of 2 minutes, I can't see that as being noticeable, but pitch then oxygenate is arguably better.

********

Once fermentation is complete, then O2 becomes an issue again. I don't know if you can even avoid it using a bottling bucket. I suppose you could fill the bucket with CO2 before racking to it, but if you're bottling, you probably don't have a source of that. If you're kegging and doing closed transfers, you can do a good job of keeping oxygen away from your finished beer. The only advantage to bottling is the yeast in the beer that consume the priming sugar will also consume oxygen, but that'll take a while.

I'm out of time to write; you're doing what I did, which is to try LODO to see if it's worth the effort. I'm still in the trial phase, even though I've produce a couple of beers with LODO techniques that were nearly mythical/mystical in their quality. But one I brewed last year at Christmas I haven't yet been able to duplicate.

I also got a new conical fermenter this year and switched over to electric brewing with a RIMS system, so my equipment and processes have changed, a LOT. I'm still nailing that all down, lots of moving parts to manage. So my conclusions on this are still open.

You should be able to do LODO fairly well, but realize that if there's a big hole in the process, you'll negate most of the effect. Heck, there are LODO people who are purging pump lines with CO2, concerned about permeability of their kegging lines, and so on. I don't know how much of that is truly important, and how much not; maybe I can't perceive the effects and some can, that's possible.

Anyway, here are a few pics showing me doing this stuff; take from it whatever's helpful, or adapt/adopt what makes sense to you.

Good luck!

 

[Big Monk]

I'm interested in trying a LoDo brew some time in the next few months and I have some newbie questions.

First things first: Start slow. Understand that much like making the transition from extract to all-grain beer, there is a learning curve. It may take you a handful of batches to get it down and to realize the effects. Just like it probably took you a handful of batches to get your all-grain batches where you wanted them.

I read much of the site, but it's a lot to take in at once. Extremely helpful though!

There is quite a bit of info there. It isn't necessarilly designed to be staggering but there is enough there that it can come off that way to people who are new to the process.

I've never conditioned grain. Is there any risk to damaging my mill? How important is this? What do you mean by "Coarser crush inhibits LOX"?

There is no risk to damaging your mill. You want to use a really small amount of water and spritz the grain while mixing and turning it over. You want to moisten the husks and let them sit for a few minutes so they are a bit more pliable when you mill.

"Coarser crush inhibits LOX" refers to the fact that LOX is contained in the Acrospire of the malt kernel and that coarser crush exposes less of it (or none at all) to oxygen.

No new investment so far.

I use RO water.
To deoxygenate mash water, the "yeast method" seems reasonable. I have both potassium and sodium metabisulfite and a good scale. I need a cap for the kettle.

Floating cookie trays seem reasonable. I'll try to find some that aren't aluminum.

Very good. Many people started with the yeast method and moved on as they upgraded or modified equipment/time schedules to accommodate pre-boiling. Nothing wrong with starting there though.

So far you are in for a SS cookie sheet or baking pan.

When you're talking about sulfite dosage, that's ppm free SO2, right?

When we talk about dosage we are talking about metabisulfite dosage. So:

Metabisulfite (g) = ( PPM (mg/l) * Strike Volume (l) ) / 1000 ) / Medium Factor

where Medium Factor is a multiplier based on whether it's in Powdered or Campden Tablet form. Medium Factor will be 1 for Powder and, unless otherwise stated, 0.75 for Campden Tablets. Youll want to crush the Campden Tablets.

Example:

Desired PPM = 30
Strike Volume = 37.9 liters
Medium = Campden Tablets

Metabilsulfite (g) = ((30 * 37.9)/1000) / 0.75 = 1.5 g of Crushed Campden Tablets

I don't see how using sauergut actually relates to LoDo, but I love the idea, so thanks for that at least!

Well, if it's kept as an ACTIVE lacto culture, i.e. stored continuously warm and "fed" fresh beer, it has redox properties!

I think I can do full-volume no-sparge in my 10 gal cooler. I just need to get a mash cap. I can use tubing to drain the mash water down to the bottom of the mash tun below the grain. That's "underletting", right?

Is it a round cooler? Walmart always has some sort of thin-walled Stainless stockpots for sale whose lids fit a number of round cooler types. They are light and will float on the mash.

Your tubing idea should work great. That's underletting for sure!

So far, still only in for a mash cap.

I can certainly boil gently. I'm unclear whether there's anything I need to change with that. I can't really separate break material if I'm using a CFC ... It's fine to copper if I use Brewtan B?

You obviously pump though the CFC, no? Just pump through the CFC back into the kettle to whirlpool, then let the trub settle out and rack off into the fermenter. Use Brewtan B in the mash and boil.

For bottling, I should bottle straight from the fermenter?

Yes, ideally very close to when it finishes fermenting. When active yeast begins to settle, you lose your protection against oxygen.

I also use O2-absorbing caps.

Just remember not to get them wet, i.e. sanitize them. If that's an issue for you, then just use regular caps and don't waste the extra money on the O2 caps.

I've never bottled straight from the fermenter. Would it be reasonable to dissolve my corn sugar in boiling water, cool, and use a syringe to add the appropriate amount to each bottle right before filling? The small volume of priming solution probably can't pick up enough O2 to matter, right?

This might be the best way starting out.

Any idea whether LoDo would benefit long-term sours?

Nope! It won't!


So, you are on the hook for a mash cap, and... and... that's it.

 

[4of7]

To mr.mon I have been doing many of these steps.The only real different step i do is i mill into the bag , put the bag in the mash tun .I started this due to the dust..Like i said ,just chasing info

 

[RPh_Guy]

@mongoose33 Thanks!

@RPIScotty
LOX -- lipoxygenase is somehow bad; intact husk helps. Got it

Sauergut -- My plan is to use L. plantarum, which happily grows at room temperature. I'll measure TA and put the lactic acid TA into brun water in the appropriate cell.
I guess I'll take a look at the references to try to understand how it's helping.
Have you found the TA to be pretty consistent for a particular culture?
Around what volume of sauergut do you need for a pale beer with conservative salt additions?

Break material -- I haven't actually used my CFC yet. I'm planning to let gravity do the work since I don't have a pump. Lots of people say it works without a pump... But that still leaves the potential LODO problem with break material.

Bottle caps -- I normally don't wet/sanitize the caps before bottling. I invert the bottles afterward to active them.

Thanks again for the help!
Just need to get Brewtan B and caps for my kettle and mash tun. Maybe I already have something that will work for that.

FYI
http://fermcalc.com/FermCalcJS.html
This has a good sulfite calculator that lets you switch between tablets/powder, sodium/potassium, and different size campden tablets, to target a particular free SO2 concentration for a particular volume. Molecular SO2 and pH are irrelevant for this purpose and can be ignored.

 

[Big Monk]

My plan is to use L. plantarum, which happily grows at room temperature. I'll measure TA and put the lactic acid TA into brun water in the appropriate cell.

Well, keep in mind that Sauergut doesn't act like Lactic Acid, i.e. modeling like Lactic Acid doesn't translate. If you try to input it as Lactic Acid in Brun' Water, the values given won't be accurate. We have historically used the following calculation:

pH Drop (from Sauergut in mash) = =( ( ( ( Amount (ml) / ( 0.008 / ( Acid % / 100 ) ) ) / ( 60 * Grain Total (kg) ) ) * 0.1 ) )

This corresponds to a -0.1 pH change when 60 ml/kg of Sauergut is used. If you pop that in excel you can easily get a value to add to your pH estimation to gauge how much the Sauergut will drop pH.

Around what volume of sauergut do you need for a pale beer with conservative salt additions?

Depending on volume and grain bill, you can probably expect between 0.5-1 liter of Sauergut for a standard batch.

 

[Schlenkerla]

@mongoose33 Thanks!

@RPIScotty
LOX -- lipoxygenase is somehow bad; intact husk helps. Got it

Sauergut -- My plan is to use L. plantarum, which happily grows at room temperature. I'll measure TA and put the lactic acid TA into brun water in the appropriate cell.
I guess I'll take a look at the references to try to understand how it's helping.
Have you found the TA to be pretty consistent for a particular culture?
Around what volume of sauergut do you need for a pale beer with conservative salt additions?

Break material -- I haven't actually used my CFC yet. I'm planning to let gravity do the work since I don't have a pump. Lots of people say it works without a pump... But that still leaves the potential LODO problem with break material.

Bottle caps -- I normally don't wet/sanitize the caps before bottling. I invert the bottles afterward to active them.

Thanks again for the help!
Just need to get Brewtan B and caps for my kettle and mash tun. Maybe I already have something that will work for that.

FYI
http://fermcalc.com/FermCalcJS.html
This has a good sulfite calculator that lets you switch between tablets/powder, sodium/potassium, and different size campden tablets, to target a particular free SO2 concentration for a particular volume. Molecular SO2 and pH are irrelevant for this purpose and can be ignored.

Thanks for the calculator.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Suppose I want to bottle with enough sugar remaining to carbonate.
After I do the FFT, what's the easiest way to convert my target carbonation volumes to gravity points? Is there a spreadsheet somewhere?

When I inevitably miss that point, could I dissolve and add some sugar to the fermenter some amount of time before bottling?

 

[RPh_Guy]

All right, 1 point gives 0.51 vol CO2
plus the residual CO2. Easy enough.
If I miss the timeframe I'll just bottle prime.

 

[RPh_Guy]

How do I determine how much ascorbic acid and Brewtan B to add to my strike water?

I'm going to try 25ppm of sulfite (1.15g of KMS for 7 gal).

How much Brewtan B for the boil?
I'm shooting for 5.75 gal pre-boil and 5.25 gal post-boil.

 

[Big Monk]

How do I determine how much ascorbic acid and Brewtan B to add to my strike water?

I'm going to try 25ppm of sulfite (1.15g of KMS for 7 gal).

How much Brewtan B for the boil?
I'm shooting for 5.75 gal pre-boil and 5.25 gal post-boil.

Match the AA value to the sulfites, i.e. 25 ppm and dose BTB to spec.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Match the AA value to the sulfites, i.e. 25 ppm and dose BTB to spec.

For my first LODO brew, I should start by using the equivalent of 20-30g/L of sodium metabisulfite powder?*

And the ascorbic acid should match the amount of sodium metabisulfite?


*Dosing by "ppm" of K/Na metabisulfite is not what is done in the wine world, so that seems weird to me. It's dosed by the actual SO2 component.
Potassium metabisulfite yields 57% total SO2 by weight and sodium metabisulfite yields 68% total SO2, so they aren't interchangeable.
Test strips measure free SO2, so using test steps also seems weird if not dosing by SO2. The result would never match the dosage of a metabisulfite product.

I want to make sure I have this right.

 

[Big Monk]

For my first LODO brew, I should start by using the equivalent of 20-30g/L of sodium metabisulfite powder?*

And the ascorbic acid should match the amount of sodium metabisulfite?


*Dosing by "ppm" of K/Na metabisulfite is not what is done in the wine world, so that seems weird to me. It's dosed by the actual SO2 component.
Potassium metabisulfite yields 57% total SO2 by weight and sodium metabisulfite yields 68% total SO2, so they aren't interchangeable.
Test strips measure free SO2, so using test steps also seems weird if not dosing by SO2. The result would never match the dosage of a metabisulfite product.

I want to make sure I have this right.

I’d have to take a look again at the chemical composition of each and the reaction with oxygen.

The only issue I’d have with what you are describing is that the composition of K and Na Meta is KS2O5 and NaS2O5, so in order to give an accurate assessment of SO2 % by weight, you’d have to be sure about how the S2O5 breaks down when reacting with oxygen.

The dosing we describe is a simplification of the chemistry so I’d have to go back and really crunch the numbers but the assumption has always been that 5 ppm of S2O5 will effectively scavenge 1 ppm of O2, with the resultant SO4 and either K or Na contributions derived from a ratio of the actual dose vs. a 100 ppm dose.

If I get the chance this week I’ll do the chemistry to verify that.

 

[RPh_Guy]

So, MW of K2S2O5 is 222, the 2 SO2 molecules weigh 128, that's why it's commonly stated that it's 57% SO2.
MW of Na2S2O5 is 190, making it 68% SO2.

Metabisulfite salts readily ionize in water:
K2S2O5 → 2 K+ + S2O52-

At beer/wine pH, hydrogen sulfite ion is created:
S2O52- + H2O → 2 HSO3-

Sulfite reacts with oxygen:
2 HSO3- + O2 → 2 HSO4-

Let's combine these reactions:
K2S2O5 + H2O + O2 → 2 K+ 2 HSO4-

MW of O2 is 32. 1 mol of each of the metabisulfite and oxygen in the reaction makes the math easy.
That's 32g of O2 consumed by 222g potassium bisulfite, so 14%.

For sodium metabisulfite it's 17%, close to the 1:5 ratio you assume.

That's all fine, but practically speaking I still need verify how much I should use... It sounds like 20-30g/L of sodium metabisulfite power with an equal amount of ascorbic acid, right?

I'll be implementing almost all the hot side recommendations:
conditioning grain,
milling right before dough-in,
deoxygenating with YOS,
underletting mash,
capping the strike water, the mash, and kettle during lautering and chilling, gently boiling,
rapidly chilling (recirculating copper CFC), and leaving break in kettle.
I just don't yet have equipment for recirculating the mash.

Thanks again, I'll be brewing this week.

 

[Big Monk]

So, MW of K2S2O5 is 222, the 2 SO2 molecules weigh 128, that's why it's commonly stated that it's 57% SO2.
MW of Na2S2O5 is 190, making it 68% SO2.

Metabisulfite salts readily ionize in water:
K2S2O5 → 2 K+ + S2O52-

At beer/wine pH, hydrogen sulfite ion is created:
S2O52- + H2O → 2 HSO3-

Sulfite reacts with oxygen:
2 HSO3- + O2 → 2 HSO4-

Let's combine these reactions:
K2S2O5 + H2O + O2 → 2 K+ 2 HSO4-

MW of O2 is 32. 1 mol of each of the metabisulfite and oxygen in the reaction makes the math easy.
That's 32g of O2 consumed by 222g potassium bisulfite, so 14%.

For sodium metabisulfite it's 17%, close to the 1:5 ratio you assume.

That's all fine, but practically speaking I still need verify how much I should use... It sounds like 20-30g/L of sodium metabisulfite power with an equal amount of ascorbic acid, right?

I'll be implementing almost all the hot side recommendations:
conditioning grain,
milling right before dough-in,
deoxygenating with YOS,
underletting mash,
capping the strike water, the mash, and kettle during lautering and chilling, gently boiling,
rapidly chilling (recirculating copper CFC), and leaving break in kettle.
I just don't yet have equipment for recirculating the mash.

Thanks again, I'll be brewing this week.

1.) Pick your Meta ppm dose;
2.) Duplicate with AA;
3.) Dose Brewtan B to manufacturer specs.

Easy peasy.

 

[RPh_Guy]

1.) Pick your Meta ppm dose;

This is where I need help.
Is ~25ppm sodium metabisulfite powder a good starting point?

 

[Big Monk]

This is where I need help.
Is ~25ppm sodium metabisulfite powder a good starting point?

Yes. I would tell you to go lower because of all the other stuff you implementing as well but since you are just starting out, I’d say 25 ppm offers a good amounts of margin.

Just be sure to oxygenate as normal when you pitch yeast to expend any remaining sulfates.

Good luck!

 

[brewbama]

This is where it gets weird when dealing with these chemical additions. Antioxin SBT (45% potassium meta, 45% ascorbic acid, 10% gallotannines) which is a pre package trifecta blend, states to add 5-10g/hl in the water before dough in. But elsewhere different amounts are recommended for individual chemicals. For example, that would be far less BtB that mfr recommendations. Who’s right. Who’s wrong. What are the impacts/consequences.

 

[Big Monk]

This is where it gets weird when dealing with these chemical additions. Antioxin SBT (45% potassium meta, 45% ascorbic acid, 10% gallotannines) which is a pre package trifecta blend, states to add 5-10g/hl in the water before dough in. But elsewhere different amounts are recommended for individual chemicals. For example, that would be far less BtB that mfr recommendations. Who’s right. Who’s wrong. What are the impacts/consequences.

5-10 g/hl is 50-100 mg/l. That’s ~23-45 ppm KMeta.

Forget about Antioxin SBT. you are better off with the individual components. For a while, many of us using SBT were adding extra BTB as we dropped the meta dose.

Pick your Meta dose, duplicate it for AA, and dose BTB per specs. If still using SBT, add extra BTB to hit spec.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yes. I would tell you to go lower because of all the other stuff you implementing as well but since you are just starting out, I’d say 25 ppm offers a good amounts of margin.

Just be sure to oxygenate as normal when you pitch yeast to expend any remaining sulfates.

Good luck!

Perfect, thanks!

 

[brewbama]

Another key point is when to add Metabisulfate. As you’re cooling from boiling your strike water, add Metabisulfate @200*F, then continue cooling. Add any water building minerals after its cooled to strike temp.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm using yeast to deoxygenate and I thought we're supposed to add sulfite right before dough-in.

 

[Bilsch]

That is correct. Let the yeast do it's job then while heating to your strike temperature add the meta.

 

[brewbama]

I stand corrected: my 200*F addition is for boiling then cooling to strike temp.

“Bring strike water to a vigorous boil for 5 minutes

Chill the strike water as rapidly as possible, dose Metabisulfite/”Trifecta” at 200 °F, and continue chilling to the desired strike temperature

Add grain (?) and brewing salts

Underlet the treated strike water to the grains”

**If yeast scavenging:

“Prepare a solution of dextrose and a dry bread yeast at a rate of twice your batch volume in grams (i.e. 5 * 2 = 10 grams each of dry bread yeast and dextrose)

Ideal timing for dough-in following this treatment of strike water is between 2-3 hours

Mix the NaMeta into the water thoroughly and let rest for 5 minutes

Add grain (?) and brewing salts

Heat water to strike temperature

Underlet the treated strike water to the grains”

 

[brewbama]

The step by step is fairly confusing. For example in one step it says to add grain then the very next step says to underlet grain.

There are other issues in the instructions as well but....

 

[Big Monk]

The step by step is fairly confusing. For example in one step it says to add grain then the very next step says to underlet grain.

There are other issues in the instructions as well but....

Yes. Add grain and brewing salts to the empty mash tun. Then underlet.

You should always feel free to use common sense and experience to detour from the written instructions. Bryan and I happen to add salts into the milled grains. You don’t have to do that if you don’t want.

If you feel there are other issues, please post them. We don’t update the main page that often because the basics haven’t changed much but if you feel there are things that could be clearer let us know and we will take it into consideration for revision.

 

[brewbama]

That is a clarification. I always added minerals to build the water then underlet the grain. I hadn’t even considered adding the minerals atop the grain then underlet. Thank you.

 

[brewbama]

5-10 g/hl is 50-100 mg/l. That’s ~23-45 ppm KMeta.

Forget about Antioxin SBT. you are better off with the individual components. For a while, many of us using SBT were adding extra BTB as we dropped the meta dose.

Pick your Meta dose, duplicate it for AA, and dose BTB per specs. If still using SBT, add extra BTB to hit spec.

Any recommendation for using the ascorbic acid in beer?

For example, In BeerSmith I read wine must have a free SO2 level of at least 30 mg/l before adding ascorbic acid or you run the risk of creating hydrogen peroxide which will oxidize the wine. The recommendation is to check free SO2 level with a titrate kit before using.

 

[Big Monk]

Any recommendation for using the ascorbic acid in beer?

For example, In BeerSmith I read wine must have a free SO2 level of at least 30 mg/l before adding ascorbic acid or you run the risk of creating hydrogen peroxide which will oxidize the wine. The recommendation is to check free SO2 level with a titrate kit before using.

Well, the recommended dosing of Antioxin SBT, which was originally what we were going on and what most have mimic'd for their own "Trifecta" blends, is 5-10 g/hl or 50-100 ppm.

Given that the blend is 45%/45%/10% of KMeta, AA, and Gallotannins, respectively, that's what most people choose to use in their own blends, with the slight modification of just ignoring the 10% Gallotannins in favor of a dosage on par with normal manufacturer's recommendations for the BTB component in the blend.

As far as what's done in the wine world, I couldn't tell you. I don't make or drink wine. I will say that without measuring it's tough to know what your free SO2 level would be. We have always assumed, given the amount of hot side DO most people are likely to encounter, that all the sulfur compounds in either form of the Meta will be tied up in scavenging oxygen and be converted to Sulfate. Many folks are down to 10 ppm each of Meta and AA in their blends (on their way to zero when getting started with N2 purging) will no ill effects.

I wish I could offer something more substantial but I just have not seen or heard of any ill effects from low levels of Meta and AA.

 

[brewbama]

Good copy. Thx!

 

[Bilsch]

I often wonder what the overall effect would have been if the initial advice on oxygen scavengers for the mash would have been to start low and work your way up.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I brewed my first batch this weekend. I'm getting a strong honey note. Might that be an effect of LOB?

I had an issue with the milling. I was trying to mill at 0.020" but my drill couldn't handle anything under 0.035".
The grain was sitting maybe 20-30 minutes or so after moistening with 2% it's weight in RO water (40% wheat malt, 60% 2-row). Lautering was SUPER easy compared to normal. I normally mill around 0.030 to 0.040, so I'm not sure why my drill was having problems..
Is wheat just too hard to mill at such a tight gap? I have a 3-roller mill. I'd think conditioning would make it easier to mill. Maybe my drill is just dying? Or I should use more water? Should it be sticky after conditioning?

My brewhouse efficiency dropped only about 6% (absolute) because of less boil off, so my mash efficiency didn't really change.

 

[Bilsch]

I brewed my first batch this weekend. I'm getting a strong honey note. Might that be an effect of LOB?

I had an issue with the milling. I was trying to mill at 0.020" but my drill couldn't handle anything under 0.035".
The grain was sitting maybe 20-30 minutes or so after moistening with 2% it's weight in RO water (40% wheat malt, 60% 2-row). Lautering was SUPER easy compared to normal. I normally mill around 0.030 to 0.040, so I'm not sure why my drill was having problems..
Is wheat just too hard to mill at such a tight gap? I have a 3-roller mill. I'd think conditioning would make it easier to mill. Maybe my drill is just dying? Or I should use more water? Should it be sticky after conditioning?

My brewhouse efficiency dropped only about 6% (absolute) because of less boil off, so my mash efficiency didn't really change.

Honey like maybe.. I'd say more like honey and cheerios or even slightly reminiscent of sweet corn flakes. Everyone's take on it is a bit different but either way it is definitely different then Hido wort.

Why are you wanting to mill so fine? My 3 roller mill is set at .049" and the crush is very nice at that gap. I'd say separate your grains and run the barley once and the wheat through twice. It should not be sticky at all after conditioning just barely damp feeling if that. To be honest I gave up conditioning a long time ago as it was just not necessary and actually could be detrimental to the grain for lodo fresh malt flavors.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Why are you wanting to mill so fine?

Just trying not to take as big of an efficiency hit.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Why are you wanting to mill so fine? My 3 roller mill is set at .049" and the crush is very nice at that gap.[...]

fwiw, mill gaps aren't likely to be directly comparable between different mills. Eg: if I ran my two roller mill with an .049" gap my efficiency would plummet compared to the results from the .032" gap I usually run for barley (and the .025" gap I use for wheat).

It doesn't take a big change in knurling patterns to come up with totally different optimal mill settings...

Cheers!

 

[Schlenkerla]

Honey like maybe.. I'd say more like honey and cheerios or even slightly reminiscent of sweet corn flakes. Everyone's take on it is a bit different but either way it is definitely different then Hido wort.

Why are you wanting to mill so fine? My 3 roller mill is set at .049" and the crush is very nice at that gap. I'd say separate your grains and run the barley once and the wheat through twice. It should not be sticky at all after conditioning just barely damp feeling if that. To be honest I gave up conditioning a long time ago as it was just not necessary and actually could be detrimental to the grain for lodo fresh malt flavors.

I'm thinking adding a little moisture to grain would decrease DO since there's less exchange of air and water doughing in. The amount might be very miniscule. I'm thinking of the effect of pouring water over a Alka Seltzer and the stirring to make sure you don't have dough balls. I do perform underletting.

 

[Bilsch]

I see. Well you are probably better off from a LOX standpoint, as well as wear and tear on your mill and drill, to just add a little more malt to makeup for any efficiency loss.

By the way, sorry for having to wait so long for a reply to your questions. Seems like since this subforum was tucked back in the dusty corner it doesn't get much traffic.

 

[day_trippr]

Speaking of dusty, I would continue to condition my malt just because it cuts the dust down dramatically, regardless of the other potential benefits...

Cheers!

 

[Bilsch]

fwiw, mill gaps aren't likely to be directly comparable between different mills. Eg: if I ran my two roller mill with an .049" gap my efficiency would plummet compared to the results from the .032" gap I usually run for barley (and the .025" gap I use for wheat).

It doesn't take a big change in knurling patterns to come up with totally different optimal mill settings...

Cheers!

Yes good point. I have the MM3, set at .049", running at ~70 rpm and really does a wonderful job. I should also point out that my system is recirculating and of course if using a static mash one might want the crush a little finer.