I use a 3 vessel system but I was wondering if it is even possible to do LODO brewing with a BIAB system?
LODO and BIAB
- Thread starter stevehaun
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Do you mean single vessel BIAB? It is difficult to do on single vessel because you should underlet the grains and then gently drain after mash. Single vessel BIAB means a lot of oxidation happens during those steps.
If you have three vessel then I would stick with that. That is assuming you have a herms where you can do step mashing.
I do have a HERMS and I do step mash my lagers but what does step mashing have to do with LODO?
It doesn't 
I recall there have been threads with BIAB brewers working out LoDO strategies. See what Google can find (site:homebrewtalk.com with whatever search terms make sense).
Otherwise, I don't think BIAB precludes underletting, though I recall some BIAB folks just lower the bag wicked slow so the air in the grist is gently motivated up and out, and then at the other end, an equally wicked slow bag removal to minimize splashing. In the middle - I don't know that BIAB lends itself to a mash cap or not (not a BIAB practitioner) but I suppose even that could be worked out...
Cheers!
I recall there have been threads with BIAB brewers working out LoDO strategies. See what Google can find (site:homebrewtalk.com with whatever search terms make sense).
Otherwise, I don't think BIAB precludes underletting, though I recall some BIAB folks just lower the bag wicked slow so the air in the grist is gently motivated up and out, and then at the other end, an equally wicked slow bag removal to minimize splashing. In the middle - I don't know that BIAB lends itself to a mash cap or not (not a BIAB practitioner) but I suppose even that could be worked out...
Cheers!
Yes you are right. I am so used to LODO being used as a full process from start to finish, not just the reduction of oxygen, so that is my mistake.
The issue for me, is draining after mash. Not sure how you do that without splashing. Mash cap isn't an issue, grant I have a basket, so it's probably easier than a bag.It doesn't
I recall there have been threads with BIAB brewers working out LoDO strategies. See what Google can find (site:homebrewtalk.com with whatever search terms make sense).
Otherwise, I don't think BIAB precludes underletting, though I recall some BIAB folks just lower the bag wicked slow so the air in the grist is gently motivated up and out, and then at the other end, an equally wicked slow bag removal to minimize splashing. In the middle - I don't know that BIAB lends itself to a mash cap or not (not a BIAB practitioner) but I suppose even that could be worked out...
Cheers!
Why don't you make a CO2 tent to surround the top of your pot when you pull the grain bag? That way you could purge oxygen out of the area when you pull the bag.
[Just for the record, green is a little used convention for sarcasm here on HBT. ...if you are going to go down the complex and complicated science of LODO, don't do something easy like BIAB.]
[Just for the record, green is a little used convention for sarcasm here on HBT. ...if you are going to go down the complex and complicated science of LODO, don't do something easy like BIAB.
]
Bilsch
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 4, 2015
- Messages
- 1,674
- Reaction score
- 1,514
There are some brewers over at lowoxygenbrewing that are doing biab Lodo. You might check there for best practices on that.
I do Low Oxygen with BIAB. I mill the grain right into the grain bag and very very slowly lower the bag into the water and then slowly stir it. Zero problems with dough balls. I do not pre-heat and chill water first, I pre-treat the water with DME and baker's yeast and wait 1.5 hours before heating the water.
To toot my own horn, I have made many award winning beers with this process and had two LoDo beers, a Helles and a Czech Dark make the NHC finals this year and both advanced to the final table for their categories.
To toot my own horn, I have made many award winning beers with this process and had two LoDo beers, a Helles and a Czech Dark make the NHC finals this year and both advanced to the final table for their categories.
brewbama
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2013
- Messages
- 3,737
- Reaction score
- 2,499
What is your dosage on DME and yeast to pretreat you’re strike liquor?
Congrats on your success!
Do you treat mash or boil with sulfites as well? If so, in what dosage?
Jocky
Well-Known Member
What ppm Oxygen do you end up with?
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Are you familiar with Low Oxygen methods?
Have a look here:
http://www.********************/
There's another summary here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/lodo-techniques.639753/
Sulfite is added to the strike water before dough in. The amount is system dependent, but 20-30ppm Na-meta is a reasonable starting point if you make a reasonable amount of system/process modifications like deoxygenating the strike water and capping the mash.
Don't forget good cold side practices as well; otherwise you lose the flavors you worked to protect.
Yeast Oxygen Scavenging may be the most effective method of lowering DO in strike water.
http://www.********************/brewing-methods/yeast-deoxygenation-method/
I also use this method. I cap the water while it's deoxygenating, so I should be achieving even lower DO than what's been shown. However I don't have a DO meter to know for sure.
brewbama
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2013
- Messages
- 3,737
- Reaction score
- 2,499
The only problem with linking to pages on the Low Oxygen site is they might be out of date. The discussion forum is a better source of updated information but digging thru pages of forum banter to find the latest and greatest can be a needle in a haystack. I can only image the chore it would be to keep the website updated with fast paced technique optimization.
Bilsch
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 4, 2015
- Messages
- 1,674
- Reaction score
- 1,514
There are members from that site, like me, RPH and others that do drive by's over here fairly regularly. You can ask here and get pretty good answers or spend some time looking through all the free archives over at LOB.
I've seen a lot of overlap of members between the two forums, I appreciate that some of you guys come here to answer questions too. IMO the LOB forum is a bit harder to navigate for a "casual" LODO-interested brewer.
I use SMB (Sodium Metabisulfite, basically campden tablets but I use a powder instead) in the mash also at a 20 ppm rate, or about .64 grams. That 20 ppm of Sulfate is usually all I add to most lagers as I am for a soft water profile, but if I was brewing Pilsner where I want to accent the hops I would add gypsum too for more sulfate.
I don't have a dissolved oxygen meter, but tests presented on the LoDO site show that water with 6.5 mg/L of dissolved oxygen being reduced with the yeast/sugar method as follows:
1 hour - 0.33mg/l
2 hours - 0.27mg/l
3 hours - 0.31mg/l
5 hours - 0.36 mg/l
17 hours - 0.47 mg/l
So my assumption is I am in the ballpark of under 0.50 mg/L, then add SMB which will future scrub some oxygen. I usually wait an hour after treating water before mashing in, but a few times I have treated the water the night before, which has the numbers above show, is still a decent reduction of oxygen.
moreb33rplz
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 677
- Reaction score
- 354
At the risk of derailing this thread, do commercial breweries adhere to LODO practices?
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Small breweries in the US? Typically not, unfortunately.
moreb33rplz
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 677
- Reaction score
- 354
Do German/Belgian/British breweries do it?
It kind of begs the question, right? If the breweries who make your favorite beer don't do it, why would I do it?
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2012
- Messages
- 3,368
- Reaction score
- 4,285
- Location
- Either in the brewery or on the road
Am I correct in assuming 5 gallon finished batches? The reason I ask is 0.65 gr NaMeta is what I settled on for my ~9 gal. total water (yield 5.3 gal finished beer). Trial/error led me to this amount rather than empirical measurement, and has worked out well.
Also, is there any 'ballpark' rule of thumb measure for yeast:dextrose per gallon in pre-treating brewing water. Not looking for an in-depth analysis, just "Yeast Oxygen Scavenging for Dummies" primer. I've not yet experimented with this particular LoDO trick and would like to do a quick and easy test batch against a 'control' batch.
Thanks,
Brooo Brother
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Belgian, I don't think so. Not sure.
German breweries generally yes, but imports to the US are usually stale.
British beer, quite the opposite, it's generally very oxidized.
Low oxygen brewing (and the process recommended by the developers of this method) has a lot of advantages to improving flavor and prolonging shelf life.
It's up to you to decide how good is good enough, or whether you prefer oxidized beer.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE low oxygen beer and other beer mostly tastes stale to me, the large majority US commerical beer. The effort it is taking to dial in my process is more than justified from the resulting beer in my opinion.
Bring water to 90-100°F
Add 2g/gal bread yeast and dextrose.
Cap and allow to sit for at least 60 minutes, 90 might be better.
Add active oxygen scavengers right before dough in.
I settled on the 20 ppm of SMB (or .65 grams) after dialing in my LoDo process. I am usually using 8.5-9.0 gallons.
Ballpark process is 2 grams per gallon each of bakers yeast/dextrose, stir slowly as not to splash, cover the water with a mash cap and then wait at least an hour before mashing in.
I remember reading a thread about this on the low oxygen site. The person that started it said they were getting some gunk in the water doing this yeast method. Do you notice this affecting the water or clarity of the beer at all? I'd like to try this method out. For some reason I just hate using chillers so if I can remove that from the preboil stage, I'd be all for it.
I've only entered one competition in the 10 years of brewing. It was last year's NHC in Portland. I entered a low oxygen pilsner. I won first place in the first round at my entry location. I didn't medal but it advanced to the final table in the pilsner category. One judge said he tried to get the other judges to give a higher score because he thought it was easily the best pilsner. Those bottles I sent in for the final round were bottles I had leftover from the time I brewed it for the first round. I wasn't able to rebrew it in time. I don't remember how long it was from brewing to final round but it was probably 6 months. Getting to the final table with a bottled 6 month old beer says something about low oxygen brewing.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
The "gunk" is the yeast in suspension. It does not affect clarity. Your barley has all kinds of bacteria and yeast on it regardless.
Most German breweries brew low oxygen. Not sure about other countries. Most US breweries don't.
The reason I brew low oxygen is because I really don't love most of the beers my local breweries are putting out. They taste like the beers I used to brew before low oxygen. By no means are they bad beers. I just don't like the taste. if you like the taste of those beers, maybe low oxygen isn't for you. I really enjoy German beers. The grain pop is just not achieved by local US breweries because they don't brew low oxygen. Try a beer from W, Ayinger, Paulaner or Bitburger. Then try a US one in the same style. I'd be willing to bet you notice a big difference.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
What's your process to remove the grain bag? It seems like that step has a lot of potential for aeration as well.
Notch in Salem Mass uses LoDo on some of their beers, their German/Czech Lagers are crazy good. I think some other lager focused breweries across the country may also. But pretty much every brewery around the country focuses on preventing oxygen ingress, more for shelf stability than anything else, but not in the same way as LoDO.
The "gunk" is the yeast in suspension. It does not affect clarity. Your barley has all kinds of bacteria and yeast on it regardless.
I'l have to look for that thread. I thought the thread starter said even after mashing they had black gunk on the bottom of the kettle that they don't get when preboiling. I'll try to find it. But in any case, sounds like others have had good success with the yeast method. I might have to try it out.
I raise the bag with a pulley until it's just above the wort, so that the wort coming out of the bag is just flowing into the wort in kettle and not splashing, then just yank the back up and out as quick as possible after a few minutes. I am sure I am picking up oxygen, but it's limited compared to just letting the bag hang and drip and squeezing it.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
That is how I do it too. I'm sure oxygen is picked up in the wort coming from the bag but it is a very small amount and shouldn't affect the entire batch.
This is it http://www.********************/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=312&hilit=yeast+scavenge
It was actual Bryan that tried BIAB with yeast scavenging and got the black gunk I was talking about.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Interesting. We don't know whether the YOS was the cause though. I don't normally BIAB, so please report back if/when you try it.
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2012
- Messages
- 3,368
- Reaction score
- 4,285
- Location
- Either in the brewery or on the road
So do you NOT pre-boil the strike water and rapid chill before dough-in? The pre-boil seems to liberate a huge amount of dissolved O2. Or would a 5 minute rapid boil and chill to "90-100F, and dextrose and yeast, stand for 60-90 mins" be beneficial or simply overkill?
One last query: how long can the yeast oxygen scavenged water stand before mash-in? I'm thinking in terms of prepping the water maybe the evening before brew day, perhaps prepping in capping the water in advance. TIA.
Brooo Brother
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
There's been some recent discussion on the LOB forum that simply boiling for a short time and chilling does not deoxygenate effectively; it's not just boiling temperature, but gas exchange that's needed, so at least a half hour boil with lots of bubbles, it seems. IIRC it still does not get the level down as low as yeast scavenging.
Yeast scavenging treatment can be done the night before brewday, which is when I like to set everything up. Bring to 90-100F, add dextrose and yeast, and cap to prevent any additional atmospheric diffusion. The initial tests of the YOS method (posted on German Brewing, linked on LOB) found that DO was down to about 0.2ppm in under 2 hours, but also that, even in a completely open vessel, it was still holding at the same level after 17 hours! Yeast can consume oxygen at a much faster rate than atmospheric diffusion can replace it.
Yeast scavenging treatment can be done the night before brewday, which is when I like to set everything up. Bring to 90-100F, add dextrose and yeast, and cap to prevent any additional atmospheric diffusion. The initial tests of the YOS method (posted on German Brewing, linked on LOB) found that DO was down to about 0.2ppm in under 2 hours, but also that, even in a completely open vessel, it was still holding at the same level after 17 hours! Yeast can consume oxygen at a much faster rate than atmospheric diffusion can replace it.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
I'd call that overkill. Use either method, not both.
