John Palmer on LODO

[Big Monk]

Yes this is absolutely true but we are going to boil the decoction after pulling the wort. If we take a two stage enhanced decoction, dough in at acid rest using pre boiled water and underletting etc then when the decoction is pulled, heated, rested it will be boiled. When some of it is returned to the main mash the temperature will rise driving out dissolved oxygen in the main mash while the rest of the decoction boils. This is added again to the main mash to facilitate reaching scarification level again raising the temperature and driving out any dissolved oxygen. When it is pulled again for the last time, it will be boiled and returned to the main mash to reach mash out. Thus even though we are physically removing the decoction (making oxygenation possible thorough surface aeration) We are compensating by raising the temperature at every stage which should drive out dissolved oxygen at least in theory.

Id love to see some data on dissolved oxygen at the end of a decoction mash.

The "damage", i.e. exposure to dissolved O2, is already done by the point you are referencing. The solubility of dissolved oxygen at mashing temperatures is such that it doesn't take very long to get to the point of no return. If you can't preserve the malt flavors you are after by limiting the dissolved O2 below 1 ppm (or less) on the hot side, then it's all for naught.

That's not to say it isn't worth it, but pulling multiple decoctions is not going to help the effort. You aren't compensating for anything at each decoction stage, you are merely exposing the wort to dissolved oxygen, letting it damage the flavors you've been working to keep, then driving it off.

All the original members and purveyors of these methods at the homebrew level (The original GBF members) gave up on decoctions for just these reasons, despite the romantic notions about its usefulness or necessity.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't decoct if that's your desire, just know that it's working against you if you are pursuing Low Oxygen brewing methods.

 

[Big Monk]

Sure I like these ideas. Not sure what a mash cap is though.

A mash cap is just that: either a floating lid (resting and floating directly on the mash) or a fixed lid with a recirculation port (LocLine is popular) and return line that sits below the liquid line.

A mash cap is essentially a physical means by which to decrease the surface area of the exposed wort. In doing this you invoke what is naturally occurring in larger vessels, i.e. low surface area in comparison to overall volume decreases O2 solubility.

 

[Weezy]

Preach on Mr. Miscavige!

 

[MSK_Chess]

The "damage", i.e. exposure to dissolved O2, is already done by the point you are referencing. The solubility of dissolved oxygen at mashing temperatures is such that it doesn't take very long to get to the point of no return. If you can't preserve the malt flavors you are after by limiting the dissolved O2 below 1 ppm (or less) on the hot side, then it's all for naught.

That's not to say it isn't worth it, but pulling multiple decoctions is not going to help the effort. You aren't compensating for anything at each decoction stage, you are merely exposing the wort to dissolved oxygen, letting it damage the flavors you've been working to keep, then driving it off.

All the original members and purveyors of these methods at the homebrew level (The original GBF members) gave up on decoctions for just these reasons, despite the romantic notions about its usefulness or necessity.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't decoct if that's your desire, just know that it's working against you if you are pursuing Low Oxygen brewing methods.

Do you have any data for dissolved oxygen in a decotion mash?

Actually there are no romantic notions, I have already stated that decoction is done to enhance flavours due to compounds in the husks and melanoidin reaction in the boil. Flavour is what we are interested in, right? Nothing romantic about it nor do I get the feeling that LODO brewing as it stands would be able to enhance or replicate these flavours unless of course there is evidence to the contrary.

The antioxidant activity and other biological effects of melanoidins from real foods and model systems have been widely studied -
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814611004572

 

[Big Monk]

Preach on Mr. Miscavige!

Not my ideas. You can read through the copious amounts of background information, professional brewing textbooks, etc.

Here are just a sampling of them, compiled so that you don't have to do any heavy lifting:

http://www.********************/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/

Again, no actual or ideological dog in the race. Just looking to make the best beer possible. We don't profit from this or ask anything from anybody other than to read the literature and give it a fair shake. That's if you want to. If you don't then that's fine as well.

 

[Big Monk]

Do you have any data for dissolved oxygen in a decotion mash?

Actually there are no romantic notions, I have already stated that decoction is done to enhance flavours due to compounds in the husks and melanoidin reaction in the boil. Flavour is what we are interested in, right? Nothing romantic about it nor do I get the feeling that LODO brewing as it stands would be able to enhance or replicate these flavours unless of course there is evidence to the contrary.

The antioxidant activity and other biological effects of melanoidins from real foods and model systems have been widely studied -
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814611004572

I think that article is talking about antioxidant properties for people.

Regardless, everyone should brew how they want to get the results they desire. Pure and simple.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I think that article is talking about antioxidant properties for people.

Regardless, everyone should brew how they want to get the results they desire. Pure and simple.

Lol i think you are correct yes indeed, live and let live!

 

[MSK_Chess]

Preach on Mr. Miscavige!

I had to look him up, never heard of him.

 

[Big Monk]

I had to look him up, never heard of him.

Another Scientology reference.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I was reading the pdf that you cited, it makes for very interesting reading although it makes some very bold claims. I came across this.

Indeed, beers from Kirin to Guinness to even Budweiser
have the characteristic low-oxygen flavor if you look for it.

Are you really trying to provide an impetus by citing Guinness and Budweiser and the taste of macro beers some of which I would not have in my house let alone serve to guests? We homebrewers make much tastier stouts than Guinness and much tastier beers than Budweiser. When I started homebrewing I was amazed at how tasty the beers were in comparison. When I tried some macro beers like Stella which I had formerly consumed I was utterly dumbfounded, honestly, it was bland, with no hop flavour except bitterness and no malt characteristic to speak of and if I brewed it myself I would have been very disappointed.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Another Scientology reference.

yeah they just having some fun

 

[schematix]

started homebrewing I was amazed at how tasty the beers were in comparison. When I tried some macro beers like Stella which I had formerly consumed I was utterly dumbfounded, honestly, it was bland, with no hop flavour except bitterness and no malt characteristic to speak of and if I brewed it myself I would have been very disappointed.

A lot of flavor loss in commercial beer is due to filtering and pasteurization.

My home brew stout was good, but it turned amazing with low oxygen. The low oxygen roast flavor is much smoother and brighter.

It's just a process tweak like yeast starters, temp control and water chemistry.

 

[MSK_Chess]

A lot of flavor loss in commercial beer is due to filtering and pasteurization.

My home brew stout was good, but it turned amazing with low oxygen. The low oxygen roast flavor is much smoother and brighter.

It's just a process tweak like yeast starters, temp control and water chemistry.

Sure thing, that makes sense. Can I ask a few questions?

1. did you have to adjust your grain bill for efficiency?
2. did you use Camden tablets or powered SMB

 

[MSK_Chess]

While I understand that you guys are concerned with hot side oxygenation from reading your text it seems that cold side is just as important. Perhaps you guys might be interested in the Aussie fermentasaurus which appears to be designed for LODO fermentation and fermenting under pressure. You can introduce all kinds of things from dry hops to PVPP and gelatin while minimizing oxygen intake. Wondered what you thought about it?

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9AEnWA3GPw[/ame]

 

[doug293cz]

While I understand that you guys are concerned with hot side oxygenation from reading your text it seems that cold side is just as important. Perhaps you guys might be interested in the Aussie fermentasaurus which appears to be designed for LODO fermentation and fermenting under pressure. You can introduce all kinds of things from dry hops to PVPP and gelatin while minimizing oxygen intake. Wondered what you thought about it?

You could probably use that fermenter to introduce finings without introducing O2, but not with the method shown. Simply pressurizing a bottle with CO2 does not remove any O2 from the bottle. Then discharging the bottle into the fermenter will push way too much O2 into the fermenter, and bubbling the gas, containing O2, thru the beer makes the O2 exposure even worse. Likewise, the open top CO2 purge does not remove enough O2 from the jar to prevent excess O2 exposure with the dry hop method shown.

Brew on

 

[MSK_Chess]

You could probably use that fermenter to introduce finings without introducing O2, but not with the method shown. Simply pressurizing a bottle with CO2 does not remove any O2 from the bottle. Then discharging the bottle into the fermenter will push way too much O2 into the fermenter, and bubbling the gas, containing O2, thru the beer makes the O2 exposure even worse. Likewise, the open top CO2 purge does not remove enough O2 from the jar to prevent excess O2 exposure with the dry hop method shown.

Brew on

Ok I think I understand, he needs to purge the bottle e.g fill with C02 then purge it just like when we purge our kegs. Plus his bottle is massive for introducing something like 5g/300ml (the usual dosage of gelatin for a 5 gallon batch) I must admit that I am not entirely convinced of his purging of the hops either. They should make a cap similar to the one we use for filling PET bottles so that we can purge the vessel properly.

After reading the literature that was cited on LODO I understand that retaining active yeast is paramount for reducing oxygenation as it serves as a natural scourge and this method of fermentation under pressure seems to fulfil that criteria. I really want one of those fermenters but they do not sell them in the UK. Perhaps the alternative is to modify a keg? I have fermented in a keg before with fair success but the amount of yeast at the bottom was excessive. Just out of interest how do the LODO guys introduce finings and stability agents like PVPP.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I am going to start fermenting in a keg again to see if it makes any difference. I bought an adjustable ball lock valve with pressure gauge so that I will be able to ferment under a slight pressure and I can introduce finings and stabilisers without opening the top by purging a small PET bottle with CO2 and using a beer line to introduce it to the keg. I can purge the yeast from the keg as fermentation takes place and eventually transfer the finished beer to a purged serving Keg. If I want to filter I can purge all lines and vessels and do a closed transfer. Any objections as to why this might not work?

 

[Big Monk]

Just out of interest how do the LODO guys introduce finings and stability agents like PVPP.

Through a careful mix of recirculation, mash filtering, hot and cold trub removal, and lagering, most don't need any fining agents or filtering.

I'm a bottler so I can only speak to the procedures of my collaborator. The keg stays sealed, with liquid hop extract "dry hops" being added on the transfer to the spunding keg. Also, physically filtering is troublesome.

 

[MSK_Chess]

It takes a very patient brewer to wait for lagering to reduce all polyphenols, flavinoids, proteins or any other haze forming precursors from the beer. Most of the beer I make is just becoming really awesome when its close to being finished! I have no problem using PVPP and gelatin. Also filtering is fairly easy and can be done in a closed circuit, you simply purge your canisters and beer lines and attach it to both beer out-lines, its gets pushed from the bottom of one keg through the filter and into the bottom of another. Most filters have a venting valve that lets you purge the filter.

I have never used hop oil but have an idea for dryhopping without opening the keg. I would simply put hops in a little nylon bag and put them in a filter cannister without the filter. Purge the cannister entirely using CO2 and then four or five days into fermentation introduce beer into it. Once the beer in the cannister had extracted all the goodness from the hops I would reintroduce the hop infused beer back into the keg. The entire process taking place in a closed loop. What do you think?

 

[mongoose33]

<snip>

100% pilsner malt lagers may be fine for conventional brewing systems, but end up a bit bland in a LoDO system. However, in a LoDO system you can add 5-10% caramel malt to your light lager recipe without making the beer cloying, while still keeping a pale gold color, and achieving flavors that are otherwise unobtainable in a conventional brewing system. You could probably fool most homebrewers into believing that there was no caramel malt in the beer, because the flavors are so different from what they're used to.

I feel a bit bad for the people who brew their same old recipes LoDO, decide that the beer became too bland, and then abandon the technique without bothering to explore the possibilities a bit more..

I've been going back and reading older threads and ran across the above post. Wish I'd seen it four weeks ago.

I brewed a Pilsner using LODO techniques as well as I could employ them. The wort tasted very nice, but the resulting beer, which is still lagering, is as good as the previous one was, more or less. Didn't knock my socks off, that's for sure, which I'd been hoping for.

Now to try a different malt in a lager, see how that works....

 

[Schlenkerla]

It's a very valid point. If everyone realized the benefits of low oxygen brewing and wanted to buy fit for purpose equipment then many vendors would have to redesign their products.

Note that most vendors of home brew equipment today are just selling equipment made for other industries with a different brand label on it. The retooling costs could be staggering!

People the likes of Denny, and JP have a huge vested interest in the status quo. Always important to consider someone's ulterior motives when they speak in public.

I was thinking about the monetary investment to make this change. Who's stands to benefit financially? Besides authorship.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Not sure this thread has legs so I'll burn a post here instead of the "epic" thread (which I'm only up to reply #490 )

I am intrigued by oxidation avoidance - on both sides. I've been demonstrably rather OC about the cold side and as I've refined my process and equipment the benefits have been plainly evident - particularly notable in retention of color and prominence of desired characters over time.

The hot side, otoh, I've only done the most obvious of oxidation avoidance techniques, mostly due to other intentions. I've always conditioned my grain before milling (because it makes lautering so much easier) which also means I mill brew day morning because I'm not looking for a lacto fest. I underlet my mash because it's actually convenient given the design of my rig. I recirculate with a return that rests directly atop the wort because that's how an autosparge works. And the HLT-to-BK transfer is via the recirculation port at the bottom of the BK that was there anyway. Finally, my BS2 equipment profile is set for 11.1% boil-off rate because that's what it worked out to after a few brews and it seemed vigorous enough.

So, clearly not a lot of effort so far.

I plan on making a point on the next batch to pre-boil my strike and sparge liquor, chill quickly before strike, dial my boil down a scoche, and see if I can come up with a mash cap that fits my process (with an autosparge that could be a challenge) and see what happens.

Won't be a Helles though I'm thinking I need a Saison on tap.

I might be able to get access to an O2 meter. Need to work on that...

Cheers!

I'm gonna ask a stupid question after brewing 12 years.

I'm mashing in a cooler with single step infusion. So if you fit your cooler with a mash cap, do you stir the mash at certain intervals or let it sit for whole mash schedule?

I'm stir my mash every 15 minutes and loose a lot of heat based on with tun I use and how full it is during the mash. I have a 5 gal and 12 gal. The larger tun usually results in a step mash mash to bring it back into temp.

Question: So again with LODO using a mash lid, is stirring a thing of the past?

I have always questioned this since its heat loss contributor in the name of higher mash extraction. When I started AG Brewing reporting mash efficiency seemed to be common thing to brag about post boil.

FWIW - I have seen plating baths (in manufacturing) use hollow plastic balls as insulators for baths at 210F to retain heat and prevent water loss.

https://www.mcmaster.com/float-balls

 

[schematix]

I was thinking about the monetary investment to make this change. Who's stands to benefit financially? Besides authorship.

Depends how deep you want to get and what you have currently.

I think my initial investment was just fittings, but I subsequently invested several hundred more once I realized there was no going back and wanted to streamline to make my brew day easier.

 

[schematix]

I'm gonna ask a stupid question after brewing 12 years.

I'm mashing in a cooler with single step infusion. So if you fit your cooler with a mash cap, do you stir the mash at certain intervals or let it sit for whole mash schedule?

I'm stir my mash every 15 minutes and loose a lot of heat based on with tun I use and how full it is during the mash. I have a 5 gal and 12 gal. The larger tun usually results in a step mash mash to bring it back into temp.

Question: So again with LODO using a mash lid, is stirring a thing of the past?

I have always questioned this since its heat loss contributor in the name of higher mash extraction. When I started AG Brewing reporting mash efficiency seemed to be common thing to brag about post boil.

FWIW - I have seen plating baths (in manufacturing) use hollow plastic balls as insulators for baths at 210F to retain heat and prevent water loss.

https://www.mcmaster.com/float-ballsView attachment 602930

Most of us underlet the mash, stir once good, and cap. But nearly everyone also recirculates with RIMS or HERMS.

There is great benefit to step mashing. I will never go back to single infusion mashing either.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I now underlet and stir lightly. No dough balls Then recirculate through HERMS. Brewing my Triple on Saturday. I’m going to change up a bit. I’m going to mash at 49, step and rest at 62, then to 170 MO. Even if I didn’t have HERMS, I would only stir once. Every time you open the lid you are introducing O2. I’ve only completed 2 batches minimizing O2 and using stepped mash. The foam stability is better than anything I’ve ever brewed. I do think it is worth the effort.

 

[Iseneye]

Depends how deep you want to get and what you have currently.

I think my initial investment was just fittings, but I subsequently invested several hundred more once I realized there was no going back and wanted to streamline to make my brew day easier.

Yeah you can do it cheapish but depends where you are starting from. I came from single pot infusion BIAB. I am now on dual pot recirculating direct fired mash. So for me the extra costs were:

Going from copper chiller to stainless chiller. This was before people started using brewtan b

Pump for recirculation plus silicon hoses plus quick release fittings plus 4 valves

Two new pots with pre drilled holes plus 1 false bottom.

I was already kegging so only extra was a spunding valve.

So if you are currently bottling you are looking at a big investment. I know that you can do it cheap but in my experience it is an expensive outlay that is worth it. If you are not already kegging the cost is even higher.

 

[schematix]

With few exceptions (i know of only 1 person), if you aren't kegging you probably aren't ready for low oxygen yet. There is a pretty long list of good brewing practices that already have to be in place before making this jump.

I bought 2 kegs when i bought my first kettle. I knew bottling was a losing game before i even started.

 

[Iseneye]

Yep, I agree most people will be kegging already. However, if you are starting from a certain point then that cost needs to be allowed for. I think it is better to be upfront about the costs of going to LODO. Some of the comments on the other forum make it seem like it's a simple matter of putting on a mash cap and away you go. Going full LODO takes a bit of effort and cost. As I said the cost is worth it but we should try to be upfront about what you are in for.

 

[Blazinlow86]

John Palmer gives his opinion on lodo brewing

Lodo brewing community replies by calling him fat.....

 

[Bilsch]

With few exceptions (i know of only 1 person), if you aren't kegging you probably aren't ready for low oxygen yet. There is a pretty long list of good brewing practices that already have to be in place before making this jump.

I bought 2 kegs when i bought my first kettle. I knew bottling was a losing game before i even started.

That's true with the possible exception of bottle spunding directly from the fermenter. Which is about as simple and easy as brewing can get. The only downside being that you have to catch the ferment at the right time to bottle. If a non kegger wanted to give lodo a shot this is the way to go.

I have lots of kegs but still choose to bottle spund about half my batches for the sheer simplicity of it.

 

[Bilsch]

Depends how deep you want to get and what you have currently.

I think my initial investment was just fittings, but I subsequently invested several hundred more once I realized there was no going back and wanted to streamline to make my brew day easier.

Same here. It was relatively inexpensive to switch to single kettle direct fire recirculated system. All I needed was a small pump, false bottom and some fittings.

 

[Dog House Brew]

John Palmer gives his opinion on lodo brewing

Lodo brewing community replies by calling him fat.....

Made me laugh, thanks

 

[Big Monk]

That's true with the possible exception of bottle spunding directly from the fermenter. Which is about as simple and easy as brewing can get. The only downside being that you have to catch the ferment at the right time to bottle. If a non kegger wanted to give lodo a shot this is the way to go.

I have lots of kegs but still choose to bottle spund about half my batches for the sheer simplicity of it.

Bingo. Although bottle spunding or even hybrid sugar/spunding is a game of balancing sediment and scavenging.

It's worked out for me so far.

 

[jdauria]

I am 7 beers in to attempting Lodo. So far I have made an Alt, Helles, Vienna, Porter, German Pils, Schwarzbier and another Helles that is lagering. Are they better than non-LoDo versions of the same recipes, maybe, maybe not, the difference is subtle. However they all taste great and the aroma of all of them is much better. Lot's of fresh grain notes, bread crust in the Vienna, honey in the Pils ,etc. Tapped the Schwarzbier the other day, it is so smooth, roast is not overpowering and my first thought was "this may be my first beer to score 45 or higher in a comp."

What is definitely different is that the beers are crystal clear after boil and chilling. The use of BrewTan B has a lot to do with that I believe. Because of clear wort into the fermenter, transferring to keg before FG in order to carbonate the beer naturally, I have a clear pint of lager in less than two weeks.

They only added cost for me is buying SMB and BrewTan-B. I brew BIAB, so condition and mill the grain right into the bag, slowly lower bag into water and use a smaller kettle cover as my mash cap. I don't preboil water, I treat it with corn sugar and baker's yeast instead. I do not take a hit to efficiency like Brulosophy guys did, in fact, my efficiency increased. And with conditioning the grain, I don't even double mill the grain any more. The Helles I brewed two weeks ago had 93% mash efficiency and 100% conversion efficiency.

Will I keep doing LoDo...for my lagers, definitely. For ales...maybe, but not definitely.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I am 7 beers in to attempting Lodo. So far I have made an Alt, Helles, Vienna, Porter, German Pils, Schwarzbier and another Helles that is lagering. Are they better than non-LoDo versions of the same recipes, maybe, maybe not, the difference is subtle. However they all taste great and the aroma of all of them is much better. Lot's of fresh grain notes, bread crust in the Vienna, honey in the Pils ,etc. Tapped the Schwarzbier the other day, it is so smooth, roast is not overpowering and my first thought was "this may be my first beer to score 45 or higher in a comp."

What is definitely different is that the beers are crystal clear after boil and chilling. The use of BrewTan B has a lot to do with that I believe. Because of clear wort into the fermenter, transferring to keg before FG in order to carbonate the beer naturally, I have a clear pint of lager in less than two weeks.

They only added cost for me is buying SMB and BrewTan-B. I brew BIAB, so condition and mill the grain right into the bag, slowly lower bag into water and use a smaller kettle cover as my mash cap. I don't preboil water, I treat it with corn sugar and baker's yeast instead. I do not take a hit to efficiency like Brulosophy guys did, in fact, my efficiency increased. And with conditioning the grain, I don't even double mill the grain any more. The Helles I brewed two weeks ago had 93% mash efficiency and 100% conversion efficiency.

Will I keep doing LoDo...for my lagers, definitely. For ales...maybe, but not definitely.

I liked your comment about Brewtan-B. The first time I used it I forgot the Irish moss right at flame out. I fired up the kettle, brought back to a boil, added the moss. - Bam!!! - As soon as I added it cloudy as all hell.

I was pissed. Haven't used it since. Since then, my beers have been very clear going to the fermenter.