Pretty much, I boil the sugar, add it to the keg, purge with CO2, fill, close, purge, pressurize. You don't have to be ultra-precise as you can adjust the CO2 once it is on tap. Usually I am a little low as it is easier to increase pressure. Yep, just chill and serve (after dumping any yeast that settles at the bottom.
Bootleg Biology: Mad Fermentationist Brett Saison
- Thread starter Oldsock
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Pretty much, I boil the sugar, add it to the keg, purge with CO2, fill, close, purge, pressurize. You don't have to be ultra-precise as you can adjust the CO2 once it is on tap. Usually I am a little low as it is easier to increase pressure. Yep, just chill and serve (after dumping any yeast that settles at the bottom.
Dcpcooks
Well-Known Member
Wow that's really a smart observation. I'm floored I didn't consider it. It makes perfect sense that brett under pressure will produce different profiles.
I'm going to give that a try on the batch I made with the bootleg release. I'll split the barrel into 3 kegs and play with timing.
MikeLastort
Well-Known Member
I brewed up a saison with a primary fermentation of WLP565 back on the first Saturday in May. I racked it to a five gallon barrel about three weeks later, and put it in my outdoor shed that has no temperature control.
Last week, I pureed about a pound of mulberries I picked from a neighbor's tree and added them plus a package of the Mad Fermentationist Saison blend to the barrel. Some day I'll bring it inside and bottle it. I'm just not sure when that day will be. Maybe when temperatures outside are below freezing.
Last week, I pureed about a pound of mulberries I picked from a neighbor's tree and added them plus a package of the Mad Fermentationist Saison blend to the barrel. Some day I'll bring it inside and bottle it. I'm just not sure when that day will be. Maybe when temperatures outside are below freezing.
I brewed this saison back on April 8, 2017 with the Mad Fermentationist yeast and it's really turned into a nice beer.
Appearance: hazy straw. Highly carbonated and spritzy. Holds a nice dense head.
Smell: Big tropical fruit explosion at first with some saison yeast spiciness & maybe some brett funk. As it warms more traditional saison yeast aromas take over. Nice progression.
Taste: Typical saison flavors but somewhat restrained. Sourness from the lactobacillus is very present and enhances the overall perception. This is crisp and bone dry. Very enjoyable on a hot summer day after yard work or just relaxing in the shade. As the beer warms tannins come out and leave the tongue feeling a bit rough (slightly chalky maybe), but I'm either noticing this less as I drink more bottles or that's going away as the beer evolves.
I made a second beer with 240 ml of slurry from the first batch. The second beer is Michael's 'Merican Saison recipe but the store didn't have Nelson Sauvin so I went with Galaxy hops. I bottled 4 gallons about 2 weeks ago and reserved 1 gallon to dry hop with 4 pounds pomegranate pomace I saved from my Pomegranate/Syrah Port. The pom saison is off the pomace now but isn't bottled yet.
Even thought it's young, I sampled a bottle of the 'Merican yesterday just to check carbonation. I'll write up more detailed notes once this one bottle conditions longer but...
Considering the amount of hops in the recipe, I'm really surprised by the sourness of the beer - It's sturdy. The saison yeast aromas and flavors aren't expressing themselves as much as I expected but maybe that's because the beer is still "green" and needs more conditioning. This beer also has that tannin quality of the first beer. Again, more on the 'Merican later.
Doomsayer52
Fathomless Brewing
I brewed a Dark Saison on 5/28 with this blend.
Maris Otter, Dark Munich, Vienna, Wheat, Special B, Acid Malt, and D180 Candi Syrup. I used African Queen hops to try and bring out some of the stone fruit/cherry from yeast itself.
The OG was 1.060 and when I went to bottle yesterday it had dropped all the way to 1.001, which is crazy because I didn't think it would attenuate that far based on the information provided. Either way, not a bad thing.
Initial sample was great! Little bit of caramel up front followed by candied cherry, pineapple, stone fruit, and raisin. Not really very sour, has a small lactic bite on the way down but nothing too crazy. A lot of pepper with a hint of funk. Definitely complex.
I'm really looking forward to how this one is going to taste carbed up.
Maris Otter, Dark Munich, Vienna, Wheat, Special B, Acid Malt, and D180 Candi Syrup. I used African Queen hops to try and bring out some of the stone fruit/cherry from yeast itself.
The OG was 1.060 and when I went to bottle yesterday it had dropped all the way to 1.001, which is crazy because I didn't think it would attenuate that far based on the information provided. Either way, not a bad thing.
Initial sample was great! Little bit of caramel up front followed by candied cherry, pineapple, stone fruit, and raisin. Not really very sour, has a small lactic bite on the way down but nothing too crazy. A lot of pepper with a hint of funk. Definitely complex.
I'm really looking forward to how this one is going to taste carbed up.
Bottled my first saison with this yeast yesterday. It was great out of the fermenter.
It was in primary for about 20 days. Primed it with sugar to come in around 3.0 volumes and bottled in 750ml heavy bottles.
6.5 gallon batch.
1.055 OG
1.004 FG
55% Pilsner
18% Wheat
9% Vienna
9% Flaked Oats
9% Flaked Wheat
.5 oz. Warrior 60 minutes
1 oz. Citra 10 minutes
1 oz. each Citra and Galaxy after flameout and chilling has started.
1 oz. Citra Dry hop
100% RO water
Ca = 70
Mg = 3
Na = 8
Cl = 55
Sulfate = 110
pH = 5.28
* Lactic Acid to get pH
Fermentation started at 68 and rose to 74. Settled at 70 for duration of primary
Was really happy with the way it tasted going into bottles. Harvested yeast and batch #2 in the boil kettle right now. This one is exactly the same. Will likely try something a bit different with it in upcoming weeks.
It was in primary for about 20 days. Primed it with sugar to come in around 3.0 volumes and bottled in 750ml heavy bottles.
6.5 gallon batch.
1.055 OG
1.004 FG
55% Pilsner
18% Wheat
9% Vienna
9% Flaked Oats
9% Flaked Wheat
.5 oz. Warrior 60 minutes
1 oz. Citra 10 minutes
1 oz. each Citra and Galaxy after flameout and chilling has started.
1 oz. Citra Dry hop
100% RO water
Ca = 70
Mg = 3
Na = 8
Cl = 55
Sulfate = 110
pH = 5.28
* Lactic Acid to get pH
Fermentation started at 68 and rose to 74. Settled at 70 for duration of primary
Was really happy with the way it tasted going into bottles. Harvested yeast and batch #2 in the boil kettle right now. This one is exactly the same. Will likely try something a bit different with it in upcoming weeks.
@Oldsock
Question - The first batch I did with this (post above) obviously had IBU's that were too high to let the lacto do much of anything. If I harvested that yeast and repitched into a beer that had very low IBU's in it, do you think the lacto would come back in a beer like that? Or, does the fact that it went through a high IBU beer in one generation pretty much preclude the lacto from doing anything in the next generation?
Thanks
Question - The first batch I did with this (post above) obviously had IBU's that were too high to let the lacto do much of anything. If I harvested that yeast and repitched into a beer that had very low IBU's in it, do you think the lacto would come back in a beer like that? Or, does the fact that it went through a high IBU beer in one generation pretty much preclude the lacto from doing anything in the next generation?
Thanks
Dcpcooks
Well-Known Member
I suspect the lacto was damaged by the higher ibu's
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1610305/
I'd think it would be stunned, but not killed. I've run this blend through some pretty hoppy beers and it produce acid on subsequent batches. Wouldn't hurt to toss it into a 0 IBU starter to help the rehab though.
I skimmed the study, and seem to be missing the relevance to this question.
Dcpcooks
Well-Known Member
I should have worded that better. My take on the study was that lacto can adapt to ISO alpha hops under certain conditions, the majority of the lacto at higher ISO alpha levels would die but some would adapt and survive.
I'm not a chemist and I'd have to really dig in to the levels of ISO alpha hops used in the study vs the normal levels in moderately hop beers.
I really hadn't thought about the effects of hops on lacto before. I was operating under the assumption that the hops would inhibit growth but not necessarily be lethal to lacto. I think the study shows that hops can lethal to lacto rather than just inhibitors of growth. The level of ibu's needed to actually be lethal is probably a better way of looking at the assessment. It looks like the cellular acid levels pays a role in adaptation so ph levels and sugar sources play a role in the ability of the lacto to adapt to ISO alpha resistance.
So I guess my question is multi level 1 if the lacto was able to develop the resistance what does that do the the flavor development of the lacto and does that change impact the qualities of fermentation that we desire.
2 what is the level of ibu's needed to actually be lethal?
I'm assuming the study was conducted from the perspective of limiting the effects of lacto as a spoilage agent on clean beers rather than studying the impact of hops on positive flavor development on sour beers.
For me the take away was that higher levels of ibu's is more than just a retardant to lacto growth but could actually be lethal and could change the resultant fermentation qualities.
I'm not a chemist and I'd have to really dig in to the levels of ISO alpha hops used in the study vs the normal levels in moderately hop beers.
I really hadn't thought about the effects of hops on lacto before. I was operating under the assumption that the hops would inhibit growth but not necessarily be lethal to lacto. I think the study shows that hops can lethal to lacto rather than just inhibitors of growth. The level of ibu's needed to actually be lethal is probably a better way of looking at the assessment. It looks like the cellular acid levels pays a role in adaptation so ph levels and sugar sources play a role in the ability of the lacto to adapt to ISO alpha resistance.
So I guess my question is multi level 1 if the lacto was able to develop the resistance what does that do the the flavor development of the lacto and does that change impact the qualities of fermentation that we desire.
2 what is the level of ibu's needed to actually be lethal?
I'm assuming the study was conducted from the perspective of limiting the effects of lacto as a spoilage agent on clean beers rather than studying the impact of hops on positive flavor development on sour beers.
For me the take away was that higher levels of ibu's is more than just a retardant to lacto growth but could actually be lethal and could change the resultant fermentation qualities.
TravelingLight
Well-Known Member
I'm getting around to this yeast this weekend. Going to pitch in my house saison grist...
11# Pils (84%)
1# Vienna (8%)
1# White Wheat (8%)
I usually mash this at 148*. First, should I adjust my mash temp? This is my first time working with brett, didn't know if I should change my mash temp for that. Also, any thoughts on that grist for this blend or any changes I should make? FWIW, I will be fruiting this.
For hops, I'll use whatever I have in the freezer, keeping it at 3 or less IBUs. I want to tease out the lacto as much as possible.
Thanks y'all. I'm spinning up my starter tonight and brewing on Sunday most likely.
11# Pils (84%)
1# Vienna (8%)
1# White Wheat (8%)
I usually mash this at 148*. First, should I adjust my mash temp? This is my first time working with brett, didn't know if I should change my mash temp for that. Also, any thoughts on that grist for this blend or any changes I should make? FWIW, I will be fruiting this.
For hops, I'll use whatever I have in the freezer, keeping it at 3 or less IBUs. I want to tease out the lacto as much as possible.
Thanks y'all. I'm spinning up my starter tonight and brewing on Sunday most likely.
I posted a response over on /r/homebrewing, but looks good here too! My most recent batch made it to 1.002 with 154F, just depends how long you are willing to wait. I generally opt for cooler and drinking sooner with this blend.
TravelingLight
Well-Known Member
Thanks for pulling double duty today!
TravelingLight
Well-Known Member
Brewed this yesterday...
11# 2-Row
1# Vienna
1# White Wheat
0.5 oz. Saaz @15
OG: 1.060
IBU: 2.9
Originally planned to use Pils instead of 2-row, as that's my house saison grist. But I decided to use the closer LHBS to get my grain and apparently it was a bit pilsner week for him and he was flat out of pils. So I subbed the 2-row and proceeded. Could be a big beer depending out how it attenuates...
Spun up a standard 2L starter, harvested off 500ml to bank, then pitched the remaining 1.5L into the wort. I did not decant because I know (well, I've read) that brett (and maybe lacto?) doesn't crash out as quickly/easily as sacc. And I didn't have time for a prolonged cold crash to ensure the brett/lacto had compacted out, so I just pitched it all. It's chugging away this morning.
I'll likely leave it be for 10-14 days before I check gravity (unless anyone else more familiar with this strain advises earlier?
11# 2-Row
1# Vienna
1# White Wheat
0.5 oz. Saaz @15
OG: 1.060
IBU: 2.9
Originally planned to use Pils instead of 2-row, as that's my house saison grist. But I decided to use the closer LHBS to get my grain and apparently it was a bit pilsner week for him and he was flat out of pils. So I subbed the 2-row and proceeded. Could be a big beer depending out how it attenuates...
Spun up a standard 2L starter, harvested off 500ml to bank, then pitched the remaining 1.5L into the wort. I did not decant because I know (well, I've read) that brett (and maybe lacto?) doesn't crash out as quickly/easily as sacc. And I didn't have time for a prolonged cold crash to ensure the brett/lacto had compacted out, so I just pitched it all. It's chugging away this morning.
I'll likely leave it be for 10-14 days before I check gravity (unless anyone else more familiar with this strain advises earlier?
@Oldsock - (or others who may have tried this)
I brewed a couple hoppy saisons with this that went into bottles tasting very good. For both - I hopped them pretty high. Want to try a couple very low IBU to let the lacto come through.
I bought a couple new packs in the last sale. For one - I am going to brew a pretty basic, low IBU Saison. For the other, I was thinking about trying a Dark Saison. Low IBU. And and some point..... I want to add cherries to it. We have a dozen Montmorency Tart Cherry trees in our back yard and had a good harvest this year. Any thoughts on a Dark Saison with Cherries using this yeast?? Any "do's or don'ts". Any Recipe suggestions that might lend to this.... thinking low on the roast flavors, looking for dark, tart, some sour and funk from the yeast and the cherries.
Thanks
I brewed a couple hoppy saisons with this that went into bottles tasting very good. For both - I hopped them pretty high. Want to try a couple very low IBU to let the lacto come through.
I bought a couple new packs in the last sale. For one - I am going to brew a pretty basic, low IBU Saison. For the other, I was thinking about trying a Dark Saison. Low IBU. And and some point..... I want to add cherries to it. We have a dozen Montmorency Tart Cherry trees in our back yard and had a good harvest this year. Any thoughts on a Dark Saison with Cherries using this yeast?? Any "do's or don'ts". Any Recipe suggestions that might lend to this.... thinking low on the roast flavors, looking for dark, tart, some sour and funk from the yeast and the cherries.
Thanks
TravelingLight
Well-Known Member
My first one with this is still in the fermenter.
But I bet Mike's funky dark saison would work well with the cherries: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/07/dark-brett-saison-date-and-pomegranate.html
Dcpcooks
Well-Known Member
I racked onto cherries and it plays nicely with the yeast. Mine was a 15 ibu saison with lemon drop , galaxy and motueka hops. I used 8 lbs of dried Michigan cherries for ten gallons of beer. There is an appendix for fruit additions in the American sours book if your looking for more suggestions.
Listening to this right now - good interview and information that is both specific to this yeast and general to these beers.
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/sour-hour-episode-57/
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/sour-hour-episode-57/
Today I brewed a 5 gallon ginger beer recipe from The Homebrewer's Almanac (authors are co-founders of Scratch Brewing Company). Used 264 ml of MF Brett yeast slurry per Mr. Malty calculator.
This recipe has a small grain bill (6.25 lbs) plus some table sugar. I had trouble keeping the mash temp stable at 147 in my 10 gallon Igloo cooler mash tun, but after a few additions of boiling water it leveled out and held.
I'm curious to see how the 1.5 lbs of grated ginger in this brew tastes when finished. The ginger, split between two hop bags, was in the boil for the whole 60 minutes. I love ginger and might dry hop with fresh ginger before bottling.
This recipe has a small grain bill (6.25 lbs) plus some table sugar. I had trouble keeping the mash temp stable at 147 in my 10 gallon Igloo cooler mash tun, but after a few additions of boiling water it leveled out and held.
I'm curious to see how the 1.5 lbs of grated ginger in this brew tastes when finished. The ginger, split between two hop bags, was in the boil for the whole 60 minutes. I love ginger and might dry hop with fresh ginger before bottling.
TravelingLight
Well-Known Member
Brewed this on Sunday, 7/16. Still got some yeast rafts floating, but the bulk of the krausen has dropped. Took a sample this morning (been in primary for 16 days) and it was at 1.016. I was expecting a little more attenuation by this point, but the flavor was great. Pretty prevalent lacto punch, with just a tee-tiny bit of acetic flavor, but I could be mistaking that for some early brett attributes.
I'll plan on checking gravity again in a week, unless someone with more experience with this blend tells me I should wait longer. I'm in no rush. But I am going to rack to apricots. So I'll wait until gravity is stable before racking to fruit. Thoughts?
I'm surprised that you're at 1.016 too. The couple of brews I've made dropped low pretty quick. What was your mash temperature? I think mine have all been in the 147/148 range.
Also curious why you want to wait until you have a stable gravity before racking onto fruit. I have no reason why you shouldn't; just curious as to your thinking.
TravelingLight
Well-Known Member
I mashed at 148 per my notes. Which is weird because I swear I planned to mash higher, around 154. I think I went with 148 because that's my typical saison mash temp (and those usually finish out around 1.000-1.003, but that's with 3711).
Eh, no real reason other than that's just how I've always done my fruit beers in the past. Technically, I don't want until it's stable, I just wait until I think it's done (e.g., 1.002 on my usual saisons). I just don't think this one is done at 1.016. Thoughts?
Both of mine with this yeast have went to 1.002-1.004 within 14 days and 68-70 degrees. Surprising yours is that high in gravity. Are you sure your hydrometer is not catching on the side of the tube or something? I usually just fill mine right to the brim so that nothing can obstruct the floating of the hydrometer.
looked like you made a starter.... 1.060 is a bit higher gravity than I did, but it is not crazy or anything....
looked like you made a starter.... 1.060 is a bit higher gravity than I did, but it is not crazy or anything....
TravelingLight
Well-Known Member
Interestingly, initially I was using the hydrometer directly in the wine thief. But this is my final gravity hydro and it's a little wider than a standard one. It was hitting the sides some in the thief. Therefore, I drained the sample to my graduated cylinder and measured in that, which is more than wide enough for an accurate reading.
However, just to be absolutely certain my final gravity hydrometer hadn't gotten screwed up, I pulled it out and dropped in my regular hydrometer and it read the same. So I feel confident that was an accurate reading. Weird, right?
One final thing, although I don't suspect this is a culprit, I am not controlling temps on this fermentation. I know (or thought I've read) that Tonsmiere doesn't temp control this strain either. It's just sitting in the carboy in the corner of my guest room with a towel draped around it to keep light out. Ambient temps in my house range from about 74-79/80 this time of year.
Brewed our 9th annual dark saison on Sunday (25% flaked rye, charred currants, Saison III, and Russian River dregs). Any of those recipes could work, although #7 isnt one of my favorites. I think cherry, dark malt, and acid (with restrained funk) is a great combination. It doesnt take much sour cherry to add a nice aroma, especially with a blend like this that has some similar notes already. Nice to wait on adding fruit until youve gotten close to the acid/funk profile you want, no sense racking onto fruit and leaving it for a year.
Yeah, I still don't have a good guess. I don't remember, have you checked your thermometer for accuracy? Doesn't take being off by much on the mash to cause surprising results.
TravelingLight
Well-Known Member
Huh. Good question. It was accurate the last time I checked it (which was a few months back). But now that you mention it, I'm going to check it again tonight. MAN I am going to be some kind of pissed off if something like that effed this beer up.
TravelingLight
Well-Known Member
Mike, can you share any insight on what the sacc strain(s) is in this blend? I noticed last night the airlock was rocking some. Now, of course we all know "airlock activity does not mean fermentation." BUT...when I took that 1.016 reading earlier this week, the airlock had been pretty still for a few days. When I looked at it last night, I noticed it's started bubbling again, about one bubble every 10 seconds or so.
Ultimately what I am getting at, is it possible that this had briefly stalled and is now picking back up again? I don't know because I've never had a batch stall during fermentation, so I'm not really sure what happens when it does. Thoughts?
Ultimately what I am getting at, is it possible that this had briefly stalled and is now picking back up again? I don't know because I've never had a batch stall during fermentation, so I'm not really sure what happens when it does. Thoughts?
I think the DuPont Saison strain is notorious for kind os stalling out for a while. No idea if that is part of the blend... but, seems to be a common issue with that particular strain.
TravelingLight
Well-Known Member
That's sort of why I was asking, to see if it was DuPont. I have a sneaking suspicion it's not though, and it's some Belgian strain. I know Mike has used 3711 in the past too, but I don't think this is 3711 either?
I can guarantee you whatever Yeast Bay cultures made it into Mike's House Saison culture do not contain DuPont, though he may have added that strain through the course of continued blending from the cultures he was adding on a rolling basis. I'm sure it's a real smorgasbord, even though the cultures were reisolated and blended back together.
duvnull
Member
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Just tried the first glass from a batch using TravelingLight's house saison grist, subbed loral and mosaic for the hops.
Turned out really nice, looking forward to getting some more yeast next time it is in stock.
Thanks Oldsock for the fantastic yeast and TravelingLight for the recipe.
Turned out really nice, looking forward to getting some more yeast next time it is in stock.
Thanks Oldsock for the fantastic yeast and TravelingLight for the recipe.
I've pretty much completely gone to no airlock during primary fermentation. There's some suspicions (Brulosophy, Drew Beechum, and others?) that certain saison strains are either pressure or CO2 sensitive. With the airlock providing back pressure (which holds CO2 in suspension longer) it could create a stall. After a week or two, gentle swirling, or warming up (standard advice) the CO2 has a chance to leave solution and the yeast wake up and start again.
Have you brewed this yet?
Yep, no Dupont as far as I'm aware. Not to say that another saison strain might not behave similarly, or that having so many strains one could pick up after another trailed off.
I still don't understand how such a tiny amount of water in the airlock could provide meaningful back-pressure compared to the hydrostatic pressure of a foot or two of wort in the fermentor. I buy commercial scale brewers having to deal with fermentor geometry issues, it just doesn't make sense for homebrewers where our fermenting beers have so little pressure regardless of fermentor (unless you are using a spunding valve).
zgja2
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I had this some thought. I hope he chimes in with some insight!
popquizkid
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So my order came in and brewed up a 4 gallon BIAB batch inside on the stove last week. Grain bill came from Braufessor's previous recipe and used a similar hopping schedule that I used on a clean 3711 saison last year. I remember at the time thinking I needed to try this with Brett so I am pretty excited to see how this turns out. Might dry hop in the keg to make harvesting slurry out of primary easier so I can reuse this.
Belgian - Pilsner 55.7%
American - White Wheat 18.4%
German - Vienna 8.6%
Flaked Wheat 8.6%
Flaked Oats 8.6%
0.33 oz Nelson Sauvin 15 min
0.33 oz Galaxy 15 min
0.33 oz Nelson Sauvin 5 min
0.67 oz Galaxy 5 min
0.75 oz Galaxy Dry Hop
0.5 oz Nelson Sauvin Dry Hop
Mash Temp : 151
Ca : 81.5 Mg:3.0 Na: 12.0 Cl: 100.9 Suflate: 100.9
Belgian - Pilsner 55.7%
American - White Wheat 18.4%
German - Vienna 8.6%
Flaked Wheat 8.6%
Flaked Oats 8.6%
0.33 oz Nelson Sauvin 15 min
0.33 oz Galaxy 15 min
0.33 oz Nelson Sauvin 5 min
0.67 oz Galaxy 5 min
0.75 oz Galaxy Dry Hop
0.5 oz Nelson Sauvin Dry Hop
Mash Temp : 151
Ca : 81.5 Mg:3.0 Na: 12.0 Cl: 100.9 Suflate: 100.9
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