Question about Brewtan B and yeast health

[MSK_Chess]

Great ones! a thousand salutations to you and all the ones you love. I have been thinking about low oxygen brewing and one of the techniques that is advocated is the use of Brewtan B used primarily for the chelation of trace metals like copper and iron etc. It occurred to me that if Brewtan B is chelating metals will it not also chelate manganese and zinc making them unavailable for yeast to synthesize? If such is the case is it well advised that we use a yeast nutrient simply as a matter of course? Any thoughts or corrections to my thinking process most welcome - regards Robbie.

 

[zeptrey]

Like to see the answer to this. Maybe starters with nutrient added are they way to go versus adding nutrient directly to the boil? And what about sodium will it chelate as well?

 

[schematix]

I've used yeast nutrient in starters forever, but I recently started using it in the boil too. The motivation for this was I was seeing sluggish fermentation, usually 10-21 days to reach spunding, even with massive pitches.

I doubled my oxygenation regimen (now 4 min at 1/8 Lpm) and added yeast nutrient at 0.44g/G of finished wort. First time i did this I took a 11.5p pils to spund in 5 days, and currently i'm on target to take a 13.2p marzen to spund in 6 days.

I use RO water. Mineral additions usually just CaCl2 and NaCl. Ca2SO4 for IPAs. BTB (~6g/hL) in the mash only. Full volume mash. Cu IC to chill the strike and BK. Kettle fined with whirlfloc and PVPP.

 

[mongoose33]

When I do a starter I always include a pinch of yeast nutrient. I also oxygenate the starter wort after boiling it. Then I pitch that starter directly into the wort, no crashing, no decanting....at 14-18 hours. I try to time the brew day so that starter goes in at its high activity.

I don't do more than 1-liter starters, even for lagers; with those, I'll pitch the active starter into the wort so both are the same temp or as close as I can get, let the wort sit for about 6 hours at that temp while the yeast get comfortable and get another doubling, then start taking the wort down to 50 degrees.

I've used Brewtan-B in both the mash and the boil, and when I pitch that starter into the wort, it takes off. I've had active fermentation in as little as 4 hours from that point, so if there were a serious imbalance resulting from the use of BtB, I wouldn't think it would take off so fast.

And the best indicator is how the beer tastes. It's great, no indication of off flavors or other flaws. I've had others with great palates evaluate the beer for me, and they're not having any trouble with it. So I'd say the concern about the use of Brewtan-B--while a reasonable one--is negated by the outcomes for me.

YMMV.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Its really interesting. I was reading the section on fermentation (chapter 4) from the book, 'Yeast, The practical guide to beer fermentation', by Chris White and Jamil Zainsheff and essentially yeast need, sugar, nitrogen, vitamins, phosphorous and trace metals (and oxygen of course) Nitrogen makes up about 10% dry weight of a yeast cell, Phosphorous about 5%. Anything with ammonium sulphate and diaminophosphate will give adequate nitrogen and phosphate.

One thing I am reticent about using is RO water (actually I have access to unlimited amounts of the even purer dionised water because of my work) because it essentially strips the water of trace elements (I think, please correct me if I am wrong) which yeast need to synthesize certain components and processes. Zinc is often in rather short supply.

I have been adding yeast nutrient in the whirpool and sometimes when pitching with pretty good results, yeast seem lively and healthy and beers are usually finishing out in 5-8 days. Yeast will sometimes actually chelate trace metals itself in the cytoplasm as a kind of defense mechanism. So whats Robbie the low oxygen enthusiastic learner supposed to make of all of this?

1.add a little more calcium than you would to account for the chelation effect of Brewtan B

(60 ppm Ca 2+ for the beers stabilised with gallotannins. It
proved important to add extra calcium at mashing-in in order to
compensate for the expected chelating effect of gallotannins)
https://www.researchgate.net/public...oiling_by_addition_of_gallotannins_andor_PVPP

2. Use a yeast nutrient to provide enough non organic nitrogen and phosphate (ammonium sulphate and diaminophosphate)
3. Think about adding zinc at the end of th boil 0.2 - 0.3 mg/l zinc chloride according to Dr. Chris White (Yeast, The practical guide to beer fermentation chapter 4)
4. Consider a specialist and patented solution like Servomyces which is essentially yeast that are grown in a metal ion rich environment, the yeast take up all the metals they can in the yeast wall which prevents them from chelation when added to the wort! Panic over, problem solved.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I cannot get bottled oxygen in the UK, its a real pain. I will keep trying though.

 

[corax]

A lot of minerals and whatnot comes in with the malt -- not only from the grain itself, but also from the water it was malted in. Certainly enough for the yeast to get by when using RO water.

Not to say that they might not get by better with additional nutrients and minerals, but you're not killing them with RO water alone.

 

[MSK_Chess]

A lot of minerals and whatnot comes in with the malt -- not only from the grain itself, but also from the water it was malted in. Certainly enough for the yeast to get by when using RO water.

Not to say that they might not get by better with additional nutrients and minerals, but you're not killing them with RO water alone.

ok thanks i was unsure, I thought RO water might strip some of the mineral content.